The Evolution of the HMV 101

[twilson]

Hello party people,
Please bestow me with your collective wisdom

I'd like to know what changes were made to the portable HMV 101 over the course of its production.
I'm aware that the winding handle was moved from the front to the side in around ‘26/’27, and that the storage clips for the winding handle were moved from the tone-arm board to the inside-bottom of the lid at some point (maybe? Could be wrong here) around ‘29/‘30. And that also at some point the automatic break was added?
Does anyone know of any other changes that were made?

I ask this because I bought this (image 1 and 2) monstrosity - a paint covered and parts-pillaged green case. I want to get the parts together to make this whole again - and then I’ll have a green 101, which would be lovely - I believe they are quite rare, right?
Anyways, I can see from screw holes and marks in the rexine that it’s one of the ones that had the storage clips for the winding handle on the inside-bottom of the lid rather than on the tone-arm board, which means it was one of the later editions (‘29-’31?).
What I’d love to know is whether I can put any old post-’27 part in it or whether there were any other differences that I am unaware of which would mean I’d have to search for parts specific to the later ‘29-’31 editions from which this case seemingly hails.

I can see from an old ebay posting (image 3) that it was once indeed whole but strangely had both the lid and the tone-arm-board winding handle clips - which, assuming that the clips in the lid were original, suggests that the innards in this image are not original to the case, which also possibly explains why someone had to drill a second hole into the side to fit the winding handle (image 4), which ALSO suggests that HMV did indeed make other slight changes to the machine over time, specifically to the dimensions/configuration of the motor board/tone-arm board, placement of motor etc etc etc. Which also suggests that I’m going to have more of a hard time finding parts to put this machine together (all of the complete editions that have the winding handle clips in the lid seem to be way more expensive and the ones with the clips on the board seem to be way more common) . Lots of also’s there.
Help me.
Does anyone perchance own both the winding-handle-in-lid and the winding-handle-on-tonearm-board editions who were able to look at any other differences between the two?

Garbled, rambling, apologies.

[gramophoneshane]

They used a couple different motors in the side wound 101, and the soundbox changed throughout production from all brass to brass front with pot metal back, to all pot metal.
Personally, I've never seen a 101 with a crank holder in the lid. It's always been on the motor board.
I won't say they never used an in lid holder because I really don't know for sure myself, but it's something I associate with a 102, and I can't imagine they'd have 2 places for the crank as your machine appears to, so I'm thinking the one in the lid was added by a previous owner.

[Inigo]

You should get Dave Cooper's book about hmv portables. He does a thorough analysis of many variants of the machine arrangement and hardware.
First of all I'd like to be sure of a green hmv must have a green rexine covered motorboard too... I suspect the wooden motorboard belongs to a black model instead. Besides this, I would also say that green portables had a green painted horn and green felt on the turntable, I believe...
I also want to point out that the 101 had, at least imhk, two different motors : at the start of the lateral winding crank the motor was model (no ???), an open works motor with circular plates and pillars, and a shorter spring than the later motor no59, which was oval in shape, and had a black metal cover hiding its innards. Even later, maybe the motor no270 (typical of model 102) might have been mounted in the later units. Or it was reverse, and was the early 102s which still carried the no59 motor? The motor 270 has again open works, no cover, and the shape of the plates is typical with a concave edge.
And it may be that the earliest 101s with front winding yet carried a different motor.
About the winding crank retaining clips, I don't know the case of double mounting; these could be naciones which somebody has been tinkering with, and have lost their lid, and a substitute has been installed, which happens to carry the later style crank holders. I doubt a machine would go out from the factory with double clips for the crank!
You might also check other features, as the lock type, the needle storage, the case handle, the brake, the id plate or stamped numbers in the wood, etc.
This is a small world in its own!
Ps. And the soundbox, apart of the four types mentioned by gramophoneshane, there's the earliest one, all brass too, but with the brand and identification engraved in the inner part of the backplate, so you read them through the mica diaphragm...
Besides this incredible rooster of different arrangements per se, there is the fact that changes of one thing or another usually was gradual, not sudden, as old stock of machine parts was exhausted, a fact that blurrs the boundaries between the different eras. All this sprinkled with the machines made for export, which usually had a mixture of new and old parts.
Too complex? Welcome to the marvelous and amazing world of one of the best portables ever made, the 101....!!!

[twilson]

Oh dear. Yes, pretty complex. Thanks v much for the book suggestion- can see that copies copies go for around 60-70 quid! Is there anywhere one can find it for a little cheaper?
Not sure if I was totally clear with my original post: I only own the empty case, the picture of it with everything else in it is an old eBay listing that I found - but that’s unmistakably the case that I’ve now got. And yes, I’m presuming it wouldn’t have been made with the clips on both the lid and the board, and also that the boards would have also been green as suggested, so it looks like at one point someone put all the innards of another machine into this case, and then at another point they were all taken out again. I’ve got a feeling that the clip on the lid is original, though it’s hard to say.
Posted a couple pics of 101’s with the clips in the lid - a lot of these seem to be coloured. The coloured ones came later right?

Toby

[Inigo]

Toby, the last two photos aren't green 101s. The upper one is a black model, with wooden boards and black horn. The photo is bad, anyway. The lower photo seems to be of a brown 101.
The colored 101s had nickeled (or chromed, I cannot differentiate them, although gurus in this forum can) hardware, all except the luxury model in red leather which had golden hardware. Apart from this one and the black, later colors available were blue, brown, green, grey and red, all in rexine with silver hardware, and the felt of the turntable in same color as the rexine. Earlier colored models were brown crocodile-pattern and grey sneak-like (I may be wrong with the grey...). The greys I've seen or owned (rexine) were not really grey, the color was more like a bit yellowish... Seven different models in all.
Knowledgeable people here may correct me, I'm talking from memory. The same Dave Cooper has a great collection of colored 101s in different variants which were shown in exhibitions. The book has a photo of one of these events with that impressive array.
In the forum you may do an intensive search, and you'll find many posts and photos of colored 101s. I bet if you look for 101 you'll find many hundreds of posts... Exactly 1529 counting this last one.

[gramophoneshane]

Toby, the last two photos aren't green 101s. The upper one is a black model, with wooden boards and black horn. The photo is bad, anyway. The lower photo seems to be of a brown 101.

I think Toby was really just showing me that in lid crank holders were indeed used on various 101's, and that I was wrong to assume his had been added by a previous owner.
It's something I don't recall seeing before, and something that none of the 5 model 101's I own have, so I appreciate the pictures and education

[Inigo]

Yes, yes... I didn't realize it
Sorry for my perorata (Spanish name for a loooong speech with not too much sense...)

[nostalgia]

Winding handle is lid is pretty common on the 101, and I believe it became standard after a certain manufacture date, but I don't have the HMG book beside me to check the year. I have several ones with handle in lid, both black, green and gray, but also black and gray ones with handles clasped to the motor board.

[twilson]

Can you see any differences between the two, Nostalgia? Particularly in the placement of the hole in the side for the crank?

[nostalgia]

I only have two gray 101s around me right now, and they both have the 59 motor, so the winding handle hole is positioned at the same spot because of that. I have some 101s with 410 or 270 motor, but don't really remember if the winding handle hole is positioned differently on these models. The rest of my 101 machines are in a storage locker, mostly. I have a light blue 101 around here somewhere that I serviced some months ago, but I don't really remember what motor is inside that machine.