Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
soundgen
Victor V
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by soundgen »

gramophoneshane wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:11 am
nostalgia wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:26 pm I told them I owned the HMG book that showed all HMV models, were corresponding regularly with the international community of HMV collectiors, but they of course, did not want to listen to that.
Actually, no it does not.
It only shows those models made by HMV in England for the British market.

Not only does it not show HMV models that were made in France, Germany, Spain and other countries, but it does not show HMV models that were made in England for export only, like those sold in Australasia, and there was about 10 different models which went through 2-3 changes throughout production.

These where given names rather than number model designations. Some where existing British designs simply given a name, while others were completely different to what was sold in Britain.

There were models called Excello, Zealand, Bungalow, and a host of others, all legitimate machines made in Hayes Middlesex, but never sold in the country in which they were made.

Some were table grands and console models, but most were upright cabinet models, a couple of which even had a saxophone horn included during changes made during their production run.

You'll find one such model here in the archives.
The first "Bungalow" model had an exhibition soundbox, gooseneck tonearm and basic horn.
The second version was the "new Bungalow" (the one shown in the archives) had a no.4 soundbox, swan neck tonearm, and the same horn that was used in the 109 table model.
Most models simply had "new" added to their name when the soundbox and tonearm were changed, so the second version became for example, the "new Zealand" or " new Bungalow".
I also have an "Excello No.3", which is a hornless model 1 but with a no.2 soundbox.
They were never sold in England with anything but an exhibition soundbox.

So there are actually probably dozens of different HMV models that are completely legitimate but are not shown in HMG.
I've always sold without shame reproduction horn gramophones in the 1980s to 2,000s ALWAYS AS REPRODUCTION ! I used to have 5 different types of wooden boxes made in India and sent here with complete assembly parts ( horns , back brackets , sandboxes , BUT no motors ) I used original portable motors in them and in the bases with an oval cut out used the portable logo fixed inside and showing to the front , others always had a 1930's gramophone transfer applied , i have never seen any of these resold , I'll try and find some pictures for you all , i even labelled them as genuine FRANKENPHONES as described by Christopher Proudfoot in Hill and Dale news

Check out again viewtopic.php?f=16&t=31878&p=189823&hil ... us#p189823 i sold Banus Banus hundreds of motors for his machines

I have bought a " Bungalow " in the past at Newark Antique fair , no HMV insignia just an ivorine " Bungalow" in the lid but clearly an HMV item , I sold it on very quickly and later told an HMV guru about it and the response was NO SUCH THING EXISTS , i have also had unusual flat topped HMV tabletops which were totally right but again dismissed by the Guru

I used to stand at the record fair in Croydon Fairfields Hall and on one occasion with six repros on show was approached by George Glastris ( Christie's ) " what an amazing display would you consider putting them into one our auctions " :lol:

OrthoFan
Victor IV
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by OrthoFan »

gramophoneshane wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 am There used to be an Indian export company site that had a catalogue of about 40 or more different "replica" gramophones that were available......

This site lists quite a number from various manufacturers -- https://dir.indiamart.com/impcat/gramophone.html

nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by nostalgia »

I stand corrected. To simplify the explanation to the auction house, I did not mention that The Gramophone Company also made horn gramophones in other countries outside the UK, since it would have opened the possibility that this after all was a genuine HMV horn gramophone, something I knew it wasn't. Maybe it is too much to expect that Auction Houses should know, or at least try to research that a HMV horn gramophone is genuine before it is sold, since there are so many models made, also outside the UK?
If it is too much to expect, there is of course no reason to list auction houses on the forum that sell fake HMV gramophones....

Out of curiosity, did the HMV horn gramophones made in Spain, Australasia, Italy, France etc wear the "His Master's Voice" name and logo, written in English language? I know the "" His Master's Voice" name is translated...but on horn models ?

I have myself a German made "His Master's Voice" horn gramophone with a different cabinet than those found in the HMG book,, but know less about the outside UK horn models mentioned here..

User avatar
jamiegramo
Victor III
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Location: St. Albans, UK

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by jamiegramo »

I think I understood the importance of your meaning as a concern about the auction houses. The machine in question is not an HMV in any country. Even if HMV models and cabinets vary in different countries, the soundbox, tonearm, bracket, turntable, fittings are generic to the Victor/Gramo Co. pattern. From that point of view HMG does rather prove this is not a machine from HMV.

Die Stimme seines Herrn - Germany
La Voix de son maître - France
La voz de su amo - Spain
La voce del padrone - Italy
Sin Herres Stemme - Martin can you guess that one?

These titles started to appear more as the Recording Angel started to disappear around 1908.

nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by nostalgia »

Thanks Jamie, and yes...I know these international translated names for HMV, I have some of these machines myself too. However...I also have two German made "His master's Voice" Monarchs, with the uk logo and wording under the Nipper logo...

Here is by the way a Danish/Norwegian record album, showing the Danish/Norwegian HMV trademark, but "grammophon" is written in German, since in Norwegian/Danish it would be "grammofon".
Attachments
august 2021 027.jpg

User avatar
jamiegramo
Victor III
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Location: St. Albans, UK

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by jamiegramo »

nostalgia wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:58 pm Thanks Jamie, and yes...I know these international translated names for HMV, I have some of these machines myself too. However...I also have two German made "His master's Voice" Monarchs, with the uk logo and wording under the Nipper logo...

Here is by the way a Danish/Norwegian record album, showing the Danish/Norwegian HMV trademark, but "grammophon" is written in German, since in Norwegian/Danish it would be "grammofon".
Sorry, of course you would know these names. I think I misunderstood your original question. I think in the early days there may have been some confusion over which title they should use. Maybe English names and titles sounded more American so the public felt they were getting the latest invention. This may account for the English logo on your German machines? A bit like the American eagles found on French phonographs. Either that or no clear policy in place by Deutsche Grammophon.

I was pleased to see your album cover. I suspect that’s a bit of laziness or money-saving by DG. Easy to just keep an existing print and change the simple script at the bottom and leave the rest.

nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by nostalgia »

Nothin to be sorry about, Jamie :)
And yes, I think you are right about the record album printing, it also crossed my mind that it must have been more economical for DGAG to add the smaller Danish/Norwegian text at the bottom of the album, and keep the German "Grammophon" text.

Your explanation also makes good sense:
jamiegramo wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:39 pm I think in the early days there may have been some confusion over which title they should use. Maybe English names and titles sounded more American so the public felt they were getting the latest invention

I don't know if this was only happening to German made "His Master's Voice" horn gramophones only or not, or if the English "His Master's Voice" version of the trademark text, also is found on Italian/Spanish/French horn models from the same period....

User avatar
Inigo
Victor V
Posts: 2099
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by Inigo »

The Spanish logos carried the Spanish translated brand LA VOZ DE SU AMO, and pre-1915 were credited to COMPAÑÍA FRANCESA DEL GRAMOPHONE, later COMPAÑÍA DEL GRAMÓFONO S. A. E. After 1931 the company name was COMPAÑÍA DEL GRAMÓFONO - ODEON S. A. E.
In the uk era of the big curlicued Gothic style brand around nipper, in Spain it was the same but in Spanish. Was it early 20s?
Inigo

nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: Auction houses selling fake/ not original HMV gramophones

Post by nostalgia »

Sometimes it helps !
I have communicated with Gothenburg Auktionsverk, and they have contacted the buyer of the gramophone listed at the beginning of this tread, telling he/she has not unfortunately not bought a genuine HMV gramophone.

Hats off for doing that, it gives respect !!

I have also emailed them photos from my collection of the variations of the HMV soundboxes, and a photo of the back bracket used on HMV horn models that they are most likely to meet in their work, excluding the very early horn models. They were grateful, and yes...had interest in the HMG book that I showed them photos off, a book that we know unfortunately (at least at this time) is out of print.

Post Reply