HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
soundgen
Victor V
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Contact:

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by soundgen »

This gramophone was a trial made of the bow fronted gramophone in Buckingham Palace it was acquired by HMVs Managing Director , his son sold it to a collector in Kent Fred Smith , When Fred went to collect it in Hayes for the princely sum of £15 ! He was late and arrived as the Gramophone was being loaded onto a trailer to take to the rubbish dump

The true story of Fred Smith’s gramophone collection including the Rare Royal bow fronted trial 203 is quite sad as he was once friendly with his next door neighbour . Fred had no relatives and made a will leaving his house and contents to this neighbour . Fred eventually fell out with the neighbour and intended to change his will and leave the collection to a Kent collector . Tragically he died pf a massive stroke while washing his car . The neighbour sold the collection the same weekend to a Japanese dealer who now owns the machine and has used it to produce cds of records played on it by Ginette Neveu.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginette_Neveu
A further irony was that a friend of Fred’s Wayne Nettleingham had his large collection of HMV coloured portables stored at Fred’s , these went to Japan as well .

User avatar
Steve
Victor VI
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, New York, Evesham

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by Steve »

soundgen wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:32 pm This gramophone was a trial made of the bow fronted gramophone in Buckingham Palace it was acquired by HMVs Managing Director , his son sold it to a collector in Kent Fred Smith , When Fred went to collect it in Hayes for the princely sum of £15 ! He was late and arrived as the Gramophone was being loaded onto a trailer to take to the rubbish dump

The true story of Fred Smith’s gramophone collection including the Rare Royal bow fronted trial 203 is quite sad as he was once friendly with his next door neighbour . Fred had no relatives and made a will leaving his house and contents to this neighbour . Fred eventually fell out with the neighbour and intended to change his will and leave the collection to a Kent collector . Tragically he died pf a massive stroke while washing his car . The neighbour sold the collection the same weekend to a Japanese dealer who now owns the machine and has used it to produce cds of records played on it by Ginette Neveu.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginette_Neveu
A further irony was that a friend of Fred’s Wayne Nettleingham had his large collection of HMV coloured portables stored at Fred’s , these went to Japan as well .
Thanks, Mike, I knew you knew the full story and I certainly couldn't remember it to tell it so precisely.

However, something struck me as being quite odd about the whole sad story. Having dealt with Probate myself I don't understand how the neighbour was able to act that quickly to dispose of everything? The same weekend as Fred died. Really?

Oedipus
Victor II
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by Oedipus »

You're right, Steve, it didn't happen that quickly. After Fred died (can't remember how long after, but certainly not in the same week), a firm of solicitors called me in to value the gramophones, either for Probate or sale, or possibly both -- I can't remember that, either! I heard nothing further from the solicitors, and eventually, through the grapevine, heard about the sale to Japan. I don't remember Fred saying anything about the George V connection, and I do not remember, either, that his gramophone had all that inlay on the front -- but then, as you can see, my memory is not that good!

HMV certainly experimented with the Victor Orthophonic horn, made of wood with a cast iron throat, so maybe this was an experimental machine, released to a the managing director once the zinc Re-entrants had gone into production.

User avatar
chunnybh
Victor III
Posts: 701
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Personal Text: "If I had all the money I'd spent on drink, I'd spend it on drink." Vivian Stanshall
Location: Victoria. Australia
Contact:

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by chunnybh »

I wonder how the sound from a wooden re-entrant horn compared to the metal horn. I'm sure the metal horns would have been a lot cheaper and quicker to assemble.

CarlosV
Victor IV
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Location: Luxembourg

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by CarlosV »

chunnybh wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:55 pm I wonder how the sound from a wooden re-entrant horn compared to the metal horn. I'm sure the metal horns would have been a lot cheaper and quicker to assemble.
I have a Credenza (wood reentrant horn), a VV 8-35 (the Victor that looks like a bookcase - it has a metal reentrant horn) and an HMV202 (metal). The 202 by far has the best sound with its huge horn, but the Credenza and the 8-35 are a closer match in terms of horn size, and I get a better reproduction from the 8-35, especially in the low end of the spectrum. I did not measure both horns to compare sizes, but from the external apertures the Credenza looks somewhat larger. The horn shapes are not the same, though, the Credenza having a larger height than width, opposite to the 8-35. In other words, it is very hard to make such comparisons unless you have identically-shaped horns at hand, one metal and one wood, and swap them in the same machine, playing the same record with the same needle in the same room. To me the shape is the main element for the quality of reproduction, not the material utilized: as you know, Chunny, the best horns made for gramophones were made neither of wood nor metal, but paper (EMG) and plaster (Expert).

JerryVan
Victor Monarch Special
Posts: 5270
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:08 pm
Location: Southeast MI

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by JerryVan »

As to the George V provenance, I'm willing to bet that such claims of previous royal ownership, not just of this gramophone, but a whole host of items, are similar to stories of things owned or given away by Henry Ford. Being in the Model T Ford hobby, I have heard of countless stories of this or that car having been a gift of Henry Ford to some lucky ancestor who just happened to have crossed paths with him. I also have a nice Victrola that was supposedly a gift of Henry Ford to the previous owner's grandfather. Who knows...

Online
epigramophone
Victor Monarch Special
Posts: 5195
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Personal Text: An analogue relic trapped in a digital world.
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by epigramophone »

CarlosV wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:32 am
chunnybh wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:55 pm I wonder how the sound from a wooden re-entrant horn compared to the metal horn. I'm sure the metal horns would have been a lot cheaper and quicker to assemble.
[ To me the shape is the main element for the quality of reproduction, not the material utilized: as you know, Chunny, the best horns made for gramophones were made neither of wood nor metal, but paper (EMG) and plaster (Expert).]
Just to be clear, EMG and Expert horns were both made from Papier Applique. The difference was in the final finish.
EMG favoured decorative finishing papers and Expert favoured a smooth finishing coat of plaster.
Both firms claimed to be able to supply an almost infinite choice to suit the room in which the machine was to be housed.

User avatar
Steve
Victor VI
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, New York, Evesham

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by Steve »

chunnybh wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:55 pm I wonder how the sound from a wooden re-entrant horn compared to the metal horn. I'm sure the metal horns would have been a lot cheaper and quicker to assemble.
As Carlos has already said, there's no need to wonder, Chunny, as the Victor re-entrant models do feature the wooden version of the horn. As I understand it the main issue with these horns today is the lack of seal around the joints in the ply as invariably they tend to separate over time.

By contrast I've never seen an HMV re-entrant horn with loose or split joints. Those welds hold tight over time.

soundgen
Victor V
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Contact:

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by soundgen »

Oedipus wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:17 am You're right, Steve, it didn't happen that quickly. After Fred died (can't remember how long after, but certainly not in the same week), a firm of solicitors called me in to value the gramophones, either for Probate or sale, or possibly both -- I can't remember that, either! I heard nothing further from the solicitors, and eventually, through the grapevine, heard about the sale to Japan. I don't remember Fred saying anything about the George V connection, and I do not remember, either, that his gramophone had all that inlay on the front -- but then, as you can see, my memory is not that good!

HMV certainly experimented with the Victor Orthophonic horn, made of wood with a cast iron throat, so maybe this was an experimental machine, released to a the managing director once the zinc Re-entrants had gone into production.
The sale did take place very quickly the neighbour was also the executor of Fred's estate and an executor cna dispose of chattels before probate , i do know that the sale to Shellman in Japn was for an exceptionally low price fo eth collection , how the neighbour located Shellman I don't know I always meant to ask them but never did

soundgen
Victor V
Posts: 2995
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Contact:

Re: HMV Royal Gramophone made for George V?

Post by soundgen »

JerryVan wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:04 am As to the George V provenance, I'm willing to bet that such claims of previous royal ownership, not just of this gramophone, but a whole host of items, are similar to stories of things owned or given away by Henry Ford. Being in the Model T Ford hobby, I have heard of countless stories of this or that car having been a gift of Henry Ford to some lucky ancestor who just happened to have crossed paths with him. I also have a nice Victrola that was supposedly a gift of Henry Ford to the previous owner's grandfather. Who knows...
This was never George Vths gramophone it was an HMV prototype for the Gramphone made for George Vth it was sold by the son of HMVs managing directorc who aquired the machine in the 1930s , he was going to take it to a skip as Fred was delayed in arriving and Fred arrived as it was being loaded onto a trailer :) there was paperwork with the machine whether this went to Japan I don't know

Post Reply