HMV 102's with metal motor-boards question

[Steve]

So, I was sitting in my (complete mess of a) gramophone room and wondered about some-thing.

I have two early model HMV 102's with metal motor-boards. One is 'wood grained' for a black 102 and the other is red .... for a red one.

I don't think I have ever seen any other colours - like green or blue with metal 'boards'.

So, I wonder, were there early HMV 102's with metal motor boards other than the wood grain or red colour ?

Thanks as always for any information about this.

Yes, every colour was available with metal motorboards. I own a brown, grey, red leather and several black versions with metal type but I've variously owned or seen countless blue, red and green leathercloth versions too.

A brown one too ! I am obviously not looking (or noticing) these other colours.

I do like the metal motor-boards. I don't know why - maybe simply because they indicate early 102's.

Thanks as always steve.

Not to be a contrarian but I really dislike the fake wood / veneer covering (plastic-like material) on the early black 102s. Give me the proper veneer any day. On the coloured versions it makes no odds.

[epigramophone]

The metal motor board allows the motor to be quickly removed while leaving everything else in place.
It would be interesting to know why HMV decided to replace metal with plywood.

[slammer]

Is it the earlier 102's that have (or are more likely to have - I'm thinking about the 1930's depression) metal motorboards? Mine has a leathercloth motorboard and dates from 1939.....

I am no expert but I think that you are correct, only the early one's had metal motor-boards. I don't know the production dates though.

I wonder why they were changed to wooden motor-boards later though as I would have thought that the metal one's were cheaper to produce ? Maybe to accomodate newly introduced motors ?

HMV 102's are very good I think and it is good to know that you have one in your collection.

I'm no expert either but I'm thinking that the metal ones were as a result of early 30's austerity and the more expensive wood boards covered with leathercloth/rexine were introduced as the economy picked up?
Yes, I do like my blue 102. I have had it since 1972 when my parents gave it to me for Christmas. It is in very good condition. My mum picked it up in a local jumble sale for the princely sum of £1!

It could have something to do with the metal drive in the run up to the war, started in the mid thirties and more of propaganda value than any real sourcing of valuable metals. In this time Britain lost most of the Victorian railings and historic guns that were dotted around the country in parks and in front of town halls. Blackburn, for instance, lost a WW1 Mk4 Tank and two guns that had been captured at Sevastapol during the Crimian war. For HMV it could have been: "Look we are doing our part"
Dunno, just an idea.

[Steve]

I am no expert but I think that you are correct, only the early one's had metal motor-boards. I don't know the production dates though.

I wonder why they were changed to wooden motor-boards later though as I would have thought that the metal one's were cheaper to produce ? Maybe to accomodate newly introduced motors ?

HMV 102's are very good I think and it is good to know that you have one in your collection.

I'm no expert either but I'm thinking that the metal ones were as a result of early 30's austerity and the more expensive wood boards covered with leathercloth/rexine were introduced as the economy picked up?
Yes, I do like my blue 102. I have had it since 1972 when my parents gave it to me for Christmas. It is in very good condition. My mum picked it up in a local jumble sale for the princely sum of £1!

It could have something to do with the metal drive in the run up to the war, started in the mid thirties and more of propaganda value than any real sourcing of valuable metals. In this time Britain lost most of the Victorian railings and historic guns that were dotted around the country in parks and in front of town halls. Blackburn, for instance, lost a WW1 Mk4 Tank and two guns that had been captured at Sevastapol during the Crimian war. For HMV it could have been: "Look we are doing our part"
Dunno, just an idea.

I wonder if it was more to do with austerity, standardisation in manufacture and cheapness in mass production. The 102 was always a bit of a compromise with its cheap hardboard case top and bottom, not really up to 101 build standard. Other makers were using steel motor-boards in the early 30's too so it might just have been a fad?

[poodling around]

Is it the earlier 102's that have (or are more likely to have - I'm thinking about the 1930's depression) metal motorboards? Mine has a leathercloth motorboard and dates from 1939.....

I am no expert but I think that you are correct, only the early one's had metal motor-boards. I don't know the production dates though.

I wonder why they were changed to wooden motor-boards later though as I would have thought that the metal one's were cheaper to produce ? Maybe to accomodate newly introduced motors ?

HMV 102's are very good I think and it is good to know that you have one in your collection.

I'm no expert either but I'm thinking that the metal ones were as a result of early 30's austerity and the more expensive wood boards covered with leathercloth/rexine were introduced as the economy picked up?
Yes, I do like my blue 102. I have had it since 1972 when my parents gave it to me for Christmas. It is in very good condition. My mum picked it up in a local jumble sale for the princely sum of £1!

Perhaps you are right. Sadly the actual reason may remain unknown and yet another gramophone mystery which lies, irretrievably in the past. However, your theory sounds very plausible so I might 'use it as my own' !

By sheer coincidence my mother also bought me my first gramophone from a jumble sale many years ago when I was very young. It is the black HMV 102 model with the metal motor-board which I mentioned 'above'. Strange but true !

I think it is really marvellous, not only to have one of the best portable gramophone models ever made, but also to be able to link it to family history.

Happy days indeed !

[poodling around]

The metal motor board allows the motor to be quickly removed while leaving everything else in place.
It would be interesting to know why HMV decided to replace metal with plywood.

Interesting about the motor removal. (I hope I never have to experience this at 'first hand' !).

Sadly, I guess we will never know for sure but maybe that is what makes gramophone collecting so interesting. The unknown mysteries !

[poodling around]

I am no expert but I think that you are correct, only the early one's had metal motor-boards. I don't know the production dates though.

I wonder why they were changed to wooden motor-boards later though as I would have thought that the metal one's were cheaper to produce ? Maybe to accomodate newly introduced motors ?

HMV 102's are very good I think and it is good to know that you have one in your collection.

I'm no expert either but I'm thinking that the metal ones were as a result of early 30's austerity and the more expensive wood boards covered with leathercloth/rexine were introduced as the economy picked up?
Yes, I do like my blue 102. I have had it since 1972 when my parents gave it to me for Christmas. It is in very good condition. My mum picked it up in a local jumble sale for the princely sum of £1!

It could have something to do with the metal drive in the run up to the war, started in the mid thirties and more of propaganda value than any real sourcing of valuable metals. In this time Britain lost most of the Victorian railings and historic guns that were dotted around the country in parks and in front of town halls. Blackburn, for instance, lost a WW1 Mk4 Tank and two guns that had been captured at Sevastapol during the Crimian war. For HMV it could have been: "Look we are doing our part"
Dunno, just an idea.

Great theory !

[Oedipus]

Something that none of you has pointed out, though it may be implied, is that the coloured motor boards, whether of wood or metal, are covered in leathercloth (or red leather). (By contrast, the metal motor board of the 99 in blue or red is painted in a crinkle-finish.)

Yes, the metal motor board was a bit of a fad around 1930, but short lived, and it probably cost more than wood; the all-metal Columbia 100 had a cheaper sibling in the Academy Nippy, which was wooden.

As for the 102, the change to wood happened quite early, probably about 1933 -- before the 16 sound box gave way to the 5A, in the summer of 1934. Economy was probably the reason, but in any case the metal board with its sunken 'well' was less necessary once the Universal brake was abandoned early in 1932, and it gave way to wood once existing stocks were used up. The bad news was indeed that the whole deck now had to be removed for access to the motor, whereas the metal board allowed the motor to be lifted out from above.

The 102 was the first line production model from HMV, and for this reason the entire mechanism is mounted on the deck as a unit. Removing the ability of the motor to be removed from above made servicing a real hassle, much more than on the 101. When you've undone all those screws and wriggled the deck out of the case, you've got to remove the bottom plate of the motor to get at the spring. There is provision for removing the spring from the chassis without dismantling the latter, but it doesn't work with the motor in situ because the horn's in the way.

[poodling around]

Something that none of you has pointed out, though it may be implied, is that the coloured motor boards, whether of wood or metal, are covered in leathercloth (or red leather). (By contrast, the metal motor board of the 99 in blue or red is painted in a crinkle-finish.)

Yes, the metal motor board was a bit of a fad around 1930, but short lived, and it probably cost more than wood; the all-metal Columbia 100 had a cheaper sibling in the Academy Nippy, which was wooden.

As for the 102, the change to wood happened quite early, probably about 1933 -- before the 16 sound box gave way to the 5A, in the summer of 1934. Economy was probably the reason, but in any case the metal board with its sunken 'well' was less necessary once the Universal brake was abandoned early in 1932, and it gave way to wood once existing stocks were used up. The bad news was indeed that the whole deck now had to be removed for access to the motor, whereas the metal board allowed the motor to be lifted out from above.

The 102 was the first line production model from HMV, and for this reason the entire mechanism is mounted on the deck as a unit. Removing the ability of the motor to be removed from above made servicing a real hassle, much more than on the 101. When you've undone all those screws and wriggled the deck out of the case, you've got to remove the bottom plate of the motor to get at the spring. There is provision for removing the spring from the chassis without dismantling the latter, but it doesn't work with the motor in situ because the horn's in the way.

Very interesting indeed.

When you say 'Something that none of you has pointed out, though it may be implied, is that the coloured motor boards, whether of wood or metal, are covered in leathercloth (or red leather). (By contrast, the metal motor board of the 99 in blue or red is painted in a crinkle-finish.)' ... do you mean that, for example, if you have an early red 102 with a metal motor-board, then the metal does not show, it is just covered with red leather - cloth ?

[epigramophone]

When you say 'Something that none of you has pointed out, though it may be implied, is that the coloured motor boards, whether of wood or metal, are covered in leathercloth (or red leather). (By contrast, the metal motor board of the 99 in blue or red is painted in a crinkle-finish.)' ... do you mean that, for example, if you have an early red 102 with a metal motor-board, then the metal does not show, it is just covered with red leather - cloth ?

Correct. You can identify a cloth covered metal motor board without even removing the turntable.
The brake and speed controls are riveted on. They would be screwed onto a wooden motor board.