Is this a pristine brass backed No.4?? And what Date is this unmarked 101?

[EdgarFB]

I don’t think that no 4 is THE earliest though. I think the ones with the writing on the front of the backplate, behind the diaphragm pre-date the writing on the back. The former are all brass I believe.

That perhaps dates your machine to 1927?

Yes I think that's the most likely full year it could be. I'm not sure exactly when they changed the soundbox, but I've read they transitioned from the front winder at some point in the first year (1926) and went to pot metal at some point in 1928 so it could be late 26 or early 28 too I guess! But for simplicity I think calling it a 1927 101 is about right as I'll never know for sure with it having no serial number!

Does anyone know when they started serial numbers? It predates that.

Now the second machine that arrived today also has the same brass soundbox, but is just new enough to have the data plate too with a very low serial number! No. 5038. Also has the newer style carry strap (like a 102) and a weird "pinch to open" lock I've not seen before. Again its a 410 motor.

[leels1]

I don’t think that no 4 is THE earliest though. I think the ones with the writing on the front of the backplate, behind the diaphragm pre-date the writing on the back. The former are all brass I believe.

That perhaps dates your machine to 1927?

Yes I think that's the most likely full year it could be. I'm not sure exactly when they changed the soundbox, but I've read they transitioned from the front winder at some point in the first year (1926) and went to pot metal at some point in 1928 so it could be late 26 or early 28 too I guess! But for simplicity I think calling it a 1927 101 is about right as I'll never know for sure with it having no serial number!

Does anyone know when they started serial numbers? It predates that.

Now the second machine that arrived today also has the same brass soundbox, but is just new enough to have the data plate too with a very low serial number! No. 5038. Also has the newer style carry strap (like a 102) and a weird "pinch to open" lock I've not seen before. Again its a 410 motor.

I have the red deluxe 101, minus autobrake, with the later style carry handle, earlier type soundbox but still a brass backed 4, with the pinch type catch.

It’s been said before that there is cross over with some parts, and HV would use older stock they had on newer machines, so it’s not unreasonable to think a slightly later 101 might have parts (like a catch!) from earlier iterations.

[Phono48]

Whether or not the rubber insulator has the protruding ring is not a reliable way of determining whether or not a soundbox is brass or pot metal. The two types are interchangeable, so the wrong type may have been used as a replacement at any time over the years.

Barry

[EdgarFB]

Now that I've determined both of these are brass (just enough exposed on each to find with an eye glass), I've noticed a potentially more obvious difference. The brass ones have very thin lettering, the pot metal ones all seem to have thicker letters. Might not be consistent, but all the ones I've had seem to conform to this. You can spot them just by looking at the writing once you know the difference.

[shoshani]

Both are indeed brass. The lettering on a brass back is thinner and crisper than the lettering on a pot metal back, which is somewhat coarser. Also, the reeding around the edge is somewhat finer on brass and coarser on pot metal.

It's a shame that Graham-O-Phones passed away along with its webmaster. There was a lot of good information, as well as images, on the evolution of the HMV No 4 soundbox.