Help Mandrel size query

[zapper]

I have just finished cleaning an Excelsior phonograph and tried fitting an Edison 2 minute wax cylinder and noticed that it will not slide all the way on the mandrel. I tried the same cylinder onto a Gem and it fits perfectly. Is it likely that the Excelsior used larger diameter cylinders?
Any help appreciated.

[recordmaker]

I have noticed that some inexpensive machines have mandrels made of a soft cast metal and this can be pushed out of shape making it impossible to put a cylinder fully on I have a Pathé mandrel that is dented in a few places and no longer allows the cylinder to go on fully, some of the cast metal mandrels also expand after many years.

[phonodesbois]

I have noticed that some inexpensive machines have mandrels made of a soft cast metal and this can be pushed out of shape making it impossible to put a cylinder fully on I have a Pathé mandrel that is dented in a few places and no longer allows the cylinder to go on fully, some of the cast metal mandrels also expand after many years.

You are absolutely right!!!

[Babillard]

The cylinders of the French Excelsior are in the specific “Phénix” format: length 108 mm, diameter 84 mm. The inner diameters are 72.3 and 69.4 mm. They were sold by Georges Maleville in Libourne (Gironde).
Julien.

[drh]

I have noticed that some inexpensive machines have mandrels made of a soft cast metal and this can be pushed out of shape making it impossible to put a cylinder fully on I have a Pathé mandrel that is dented in a few places and no longer allows the cylinder to go on fully, some of the cast metal mandrels also expand after many years.

You are absolutely right!!!

Could you elaborate a bit? I have a slip-on Pathé salon mandrel, and none of my 4 salon cylinders will slide all the way onto it. I had assumed the cylinders had swelled over the years--they all came from the same source at the same time, and I had the same problem with a like slip-on mandrel, now sold--but it never occurred to me that it might be the mandrel that was at fault. Is that what's going on here? If so, is there anything to be done to correct it? The cylinders do go on well enough to play; I'd say they miss going all the way on by around ¾ inch.

[recordmaker]

You will see a lot of comments on "pot metal" expanded parts for reproducers and other machine parts. The problem with mandrels is that the shallow taper means that a change of .6% on a standard mandrel or less on a concert or salon move the fitting position by 10 mm.
Some alloys have crystallization changes at room temperature that take years but can , I understand, be a much as 4% these may be 1 % or less in this respect.

Note that the effect of the thin wall mandrel being squashed a bit out of round can produce the same effect and is not immediately obvious the metal of the Pathé slip on mandrels seems soft and thin to me.

In comparison wax cylinders are comparatively stable. Unless stored warm on the side when they can go a bit oval.

the limited time that Pathé made these machines before leaving the cylinder market probably means that the original purchasers moved over to discs long before the mandrels changed shape.

[drh]

Thank you!

[Dulcetto]

I have noticed that some inexpensive machines have mandrels made of a soft cast metal and this can be pushed out of shape making it impossible to put a cylinder fully on I have a Pathé mandrel that is dented in a few places and no longer allows the cylinder to go on fully, some of the cast metal mandrels also expand after many years.

You are absolutely right!!!

Could you elaborate a bit? I have a slip-on Pathé salon mandrel, and none of my 4 salon cylinders will slide all the way onto it. I had assumed the cylinders had swelled over the years--they all came from the same source at the same time, and I had the same problem with a like slip-on mandrel, now sold--but it never occurred to me that it might be the mandrel that was at fault. Is that what's going on here? If so, is there anything to be done to correct it? The cylinders do go on well enough to play; I'd say they miss going all the way on by around ¾ inch.

It is often the case that Pathé Intermediate cylinders will no longer properly fit the mandrel -- in the case of Pathé Intermediates, that usually means a slip - on
mandrel that was supplied with many of their models , as well as certain Pathé models that had fixed Intermediate size mandrels . What is not generally known by many collectors is that it is often not the mandrel at fault , but shrinkage of the record itself over the years which now causes a problem. Yes , I can " hear" some of you say , surely shrinkage only affects celluloid records such as Lamberts , Blue Amberols etc , but wax cylinder shrink as well. It is more noticeable on the larger diameters such as Pathé Intermediates and 5 inch Concerts too. Indeed almost every Concert record I have ( over 60 ) have shrinkage to some extent or other. British Edison - Bell Concerts seem to be more affected than American Edison or Columbia Concerts , but then that is not surprising when one considers that Edison - Bell obtained their Concert blanks ( for then duplicating records from masters ) from Pathé anyway ! Indeed I have a few of the
last type Pathé Concerts that are black wax moulded , and they too have the same shrinkage to some extent. In the case of shrinkage of Concerts particularly , I have found it necessary to carefully ream slightly virtually all the Edison Bells , ( which in UK are the most commonly found Concerts ) to enable them to fit the mandrel of an Edison Concert Phonograph so the end - gate will shut ! Regards form UK PAUL

[Sidewinder]

A photo of your excelsior would be a great help. Some metals do change size. The most extreme are mandrels of pot-metal. Here an example of a Pathé mandrel. As one can see the degratation of the mandrel has expansion power as it has deformed the steel slip-on mandrel.

[recordmaker]

Metal Expansion
Thanks for the photos of the mandrel deterioration and evident expansion. The comparison with the steel is interesting and significant and plausibly confirming a fairly high percentage change in the mandrel size when made in these materials.

Cylinder Shrinkage
The change in the cylinders described earlier may have a mechanism due to the derivation of the stearic acid in France as opposed to America. And this may be due to grass fed dairy cows in France vs those bred for lean meat in the USA and also the process for pressing and thus removing the liquid fats ( mostly Oleic and Linoleic acid ) from the stearic acid derived from the rendered tallow. It is often observed that the Pathé cylinders very often turn up with a thick coat of white mold and are noticeably softer than most other makes at the time.
If the remaining liquid fat was what is termed fugitive and migrates to the surface then the coating of edible vegetable cooking oil on the surface the could be eaten by mold or evaporate off over many years. Well processed Stearic acid should have less than 2% oleic acid and softer material possibly 5 %.

Whereas there is considerable documentation about the metals, the use of wax has a less studied. Possibly confirming that standard Pathé cylinders in the molded material exhibit shrinkage to some extent on a stable reference of an Edison brass mandrel would give a clue. I don't have enough of them to confirm.