The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am

poodling around wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:43 pm

Phono-Phan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:40 pm Anyone want to guess what the final bid will be?

I am thinking between £3,500 and £ 5,000.

If it is 'all it seems to be'.

I know nothing about Berliners.

Yes, I can see that you " know nothing about Berliners" --- Five inch Berliners can fetch serious money , I have seen them sell at auction each for as much as £ 1100 ( plus buyer's premium ) although I realize that is an unusually high price , but they usually make between 500 and 800 each. Naturally with a group of eighteen , the price for one cannot be multiplied up for a job lot so to speak , but they are still going to make serious money. I have never seen eighteen come up for sale all together. Possibly factor in £10 or £12 K for the records and whatever the machine is worth -- say £15K. Could make a final hammer price in the £20 K to £25K range ( allowing for the the greedy buyer's premium ). The auctioneers , as often , don't have a clue -- indeed they have offered the lot in their " general sale " !! Let's hope the records stay in one piece during the viewing whereby Tom Dick and Harry will be handling them !! I shudder to think !

Aha. Very interesting indeed.

I also well understand your concern about the possibility of the records being damaged.

poodling around wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:23 pm

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am

poodling around wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:43 pm

I am thinking between £3,500 and £ 5,000.

If it is 'all it seems to be'.

I know nothing about Berliners.

Yes, I can see that you " know nothing about Berliners" --- Five inch Berliners can fetch serious money , I have seen them sell at auction each for as much as £ 1100 ( plus buyer's premium ) although I realize that is an unusually high price , but they usually make between 500 and 800 each. Naturally with a group of eighteen , the price for one cannot be multiplied up for a job lot so to speak , but they are still going to make serious money. I have never seen eighteen come up for sale all together. Possibly factor in £10 or £12 K for the records and whatever the machine is worth -- say £15K. Could make a final hammer price in the £20 K to £25K range ( allowing for the the greedy buyer's premium ). The auctioneers , as often , don't have a clue -- indeed they have offered the lot in their " general sale " !! Let's hope the records stay in one piece during the viewing whereby Tom Dick and Harry will be handling them !! I shudder to think !

Aha. Very interesting indeed.

I also well understand your concern about the possibility of the records being damaged.

Yes, five inch Berliners are particularly thin and as such need to be carefully handled . Also they are of course somewhere in the region of 130 years old now. Incidentally , a recent American CD release of transfers from 5 inch Berliners prompted the promoter to say that " all surviving examples of 5 inch Berliners could be fitted inside a hat - box " or some such similar wording. Personally I think that is stretching credulity a little , but nevertheless they are very rare little things. It will be interesting to see how the sale goes

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:34 pm

poodling around wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:23 pm

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am

Yes, I can see that you " know nothing about Berliners" --- Five inch Berliners can fetch serious money , I have seen them sell at auction each for as much as £ 1100 ( plus buyer's premium ) although I realize that is an unusually high price , but they usually make between 500 and 800 each. Naturally with a group of eighteen , the price for one cannot be multiplied up for a job lot so to speak , but they are still going to make serious money. I have never seen eighteen come up for sale all together. Possibly factor in £10 or £12 K for the records and whatever the machine is worth -- say £15K. Could make a final hammer price in the £20 K to £25K range ( allowing for the the greedy buyer's premium ). The auctioneers , as often , don't have a clue -- indeed they have offered the lot in their " general sale " !! Let's hope the records stay in one piece during the viewing whereby Tom Dick and Harry will be handling them !! I shudder to think !

Aha. Very interesting indeed.

I also well understand your concern about the possibility of the records being damaged.

Yes, five inch Berliners are particularly thin and as such need to be carefully handled . Also they are of course somewhere in the region of 130 years old now. Incidentally , a recent American CD release of transfers from 5 inch Berliners prompted the promoter to say that " all surviving examples of 5 inch Berliners could be fitted inside a hat - box " or some such similar wording. Personally I think that is stretching credulity a little , but nevertheless they are very rare little things. It will be interesting to see how the sale goes

Absolutely fascinating.

I have to say that this 'Auction lot', more than any other I have seen, commands reverence because of it's historical connotations.

As you say, 'it will be interesting to see how the sale goes'.

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:34 pm

poodling around wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:23 pm

Dulcetto wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:30 am

Yes, I can see that you " know nothing about Berliners" --- Five inch Berliners can fetch serious money , I have seen them sell at auction each for as much as £ 1100 ( plus buyer's premium ) although I realize that is an unusually high price , but they usually make between 500 and 800 each. Naturally with a group of eighteen , the price for one cannot be multiplied up for a job lot so to speak , but they are still going to make serious money. I have never seen eighteen come up for sale all together. Possibly factor in £10 or £12 K for the records and whatever the machine is worth -- say £15K. Could make a final hammer price in the £20 K to £25K range ( allowing for the the greedy buyer's premium ). The auctioneers , as often , don't have a clue -- indeed they have offered the lot in their " general sale " !! Let's hope the records stay in one piece during the viewing whereby Tom Dick and Harry will be handling them !! I shudder to think !

Aha. Very interesting indeed.

I also well understand your concern about the possibility of the records being damaged.

Yes, five inch Berliners are particularly thin and as such need to be carefully handled . Also they are of course somewhere in the region of 130 years old now. Incidentally , a recent American CD release of transfers from 5 inch Berliners prompted the promoter to say that " all surviving examples of 5 inch Berliners could be fitted inside a hat - box " or some such similar wording. Personally I think that is stretching credulity a little , but nevertheless they are very rare little things. It will be interesting to see how the sale goes

I don't know about hat boxes, but a prominent UK collector of Berliners told me that when he began collecting several decades ago, people used to send them to him in biscuit tins.

[quote=epigramophone post_id=302475 time=1633609472 user_id=1616]
I have no doubt that the machine is extremely rare and, to some, extremely desirable, but rather than speculate as to it's value I prefer to adopt an 1890's approach.
No matter how generous my budget I could not bring myself to tie up a large sum of money in such a crude machine which, in it's day, would have made the owner of an Edison or a Graphophone sick with mirth.
Of course with the benefit of hindsight we all know that the Gramophone had the last laugh.
[/quote]
In its day, i.e., the early 1890s, there were no "owners" of Edison phonographs or Graphophones, as these were all on loan only. If we leave aside the tin foil phonographs, which were already obsolete at the time, E. Berliner's Grammophon by Kämmer, Reinhardt & Co. were the first talking machines you could buy.

Starkton wrote: ↑Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:12 pm

epigramophone wrote: ↑Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:24 am I have no doubt that the machine is extremely rare and, to some, extremely desirable, but rather than speculate as to it's value I prefer to adopt an 1890's approach.
No matter how generous my budget I could not bring myself to tie up a large sum of money in such a crude machine which, in it's day, would have made the owner of an Edison or a Graphophone sick with mirth.
Of course with the benefit of hindsight we all know that the Gramophone had the last laugh.

In its day, i.e., the early 1890s, there were no "owners" of Edison phonographs or Graphophones, as these were all on loan only. If we leave aside the tin foil phonographs, which were already obsolete at the time, E. Berliner's Grammophon by Kämmer, Reinhardt & Co. were the first talking machines you could buy.

Although the majority of phonographs were leased during the early 1890's, some were sold. When Edison took over control of the North American Phonograph Company from Jesse Lippincott in 1891, one of his first acts was to abandon the rental only policy and offer phonographs for sale outright.
The majority of Graphophones were leased to coin-in-the-slot operators, but again there were sales of machines to the small minority of individuals who could afford their high purchase prices, and who bought cylinders for home entertainment.

Source : The Fabulous Phonograph by Roland Gelatt.

The "recent CD" concerning the preservation of some 100 original 5" Berliner discs (actually 4.92" dia) is entitled Etching the Voice and contains 2 CD's and 80 pages of detailed Liner Notes and color illustrations. The entire opus is available from Archeophone Records and has their usual attention to detail. It is a beautiful set (aurally & visually) and is quite reasonable.

I had a question regarding Berliner's travels which are mentioned on p. 18 - this was the trip when Emile engaged the firm of K&R to publicize and distribute his new-fangled machine and records. We do know that Emile and family arrived in Germany on Sep 11, 1889, and returned to the US after a year or so. The date of his arrival in NYC/Washington, DC is given as "late August or early Sep [1890]".

So, thinking about it some more: why do we not have a more precise date or even the name of the triumphant ship?

Allen

Current high bid is £8,200, with nearly 2 days to go. Look for some fireworks in the last few seconds...

- Bill

[quote=AllenKoe post_id=302668 time=1633910274 user_id=918]
I had a question regarding Berliner's travels which are mentioned on p. 18 - this was the trip when Emile engaged the firm of K&R to publicize and distribute his new-fangled machine and records. We do know that Emile and family arrived in Germany on Sep 11, 1889, and returned to the US after a year or so. The date of his arrival in NYC/Washington, DC is given as "late August or early Sep [1890]".

So, thinking about it some more: why do we not have a more precise date or even the name of the triumphant ship?

Allen
[/quote]
That is a good question and hopefully someone who has access to passenger lists can answer it. The departure and arrival time in 1889 is in Cora Berliner's diary. Unfortunately, she did not record the times of return. By the way, late August or early September is the assumed time of departure, not the date of arrival. Berliner left Germany after August 26, 1890, when he gave his brother Jacob a power of attorney, see endnote 49 of the relevant article in the Liner Notes of the Archeophone-Double CD, and arrived in the U.S. "a few weeks" before October 21, when The Washington Post reported about him. The passage took about ten days, two weeks at most. Perhaps someone with access to ancestry can check it: https://www.ancestry.de/search/collecti ... name_x=1_1

£29,000 plus that huge premium.