His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

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Django
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His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by Django »

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... c7329b913e

Nice little British version of a Victor O. Not a bad price for an unusual, outside horn machine. Cute as a button. No reproducer, but I think a good deal.
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gramophoneshane
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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by gramophoneshane »

I doesn't look right to me.
And that brake is something I've never seen before either.
I think it's a frankenphone with a new cabinet and decal.

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by epigramophone »

I agree. There is much about this machine which is not original.
The case bears no resemblance to any of the HMV Junior Monarchs illustrated in the definitive reference book "His Master's Gramophone". It has clearly been refinished and carries a later (1924 on) transfer.
The listing states that "A rebuilt Victor Exhibition reproducer is included with the phonograph". Why not an HMV?

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by Steve »

I wonder if this is a 1920s Indian model? The cabinet looks to have been rubbed down and lightened - it has a blotchy appearance as though it was originally finished with a very dark heavy stain, typical of Colonial models. Look around the motorboard screws; there is evidence of a much darker finish.

The turntable, motor, brake, speed control, winder, back bracket are all HMV. The horn and elbow are not but are likely to be French or Swiss instead.

I'm not convinced it's a Frankenphone, even with misplaced horn / elbow. I think it's a foreign HMV as there are too many correct parts for it to coincidentally be a successful conglomeration of otherwise disparate parts. That transfer, whilst now available as a reproduction, doesn't look new to me and most people would not seek out that one for a horn machine anyway even if its not out of place, when there are earlier more commonly seen types available as reproductions.

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by JerryVan »

I see nothing wrong with it, except for what appears to be the wrong horn & elbow, as well as the curious decal.

Too bad we don't have a close-up photo of the decal area. I would be curious to see if there weren't 4 tiny nail holes from a Victor metal nameplate. I'm thinking the seller may have done an "upgrade" by applying a more interesting HMV decal. Judging by the Columbia in the background, the seller would seem to have the wherewithal to accomplish this modification.

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by Steve »

JerryVan wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:51 am I see nothing wrong with it, except for what appears to be the wrong horn & elbow, as well as the curious decal.

Too bad we don't have a close-up photo of the decal area. I would be curious to see if there weren't 4 tiny nail holes from a Victor metal nameplate. I'm thinking the seller may have done an "upgrade" by applying a more interesting HMV decal. Judging by the Columbia in the background, the seller would seem to have the wherewithal to accomplish this modification.
But what would the seller achieve by turning a genuine Victor into a "fake" HMV? Even if this were true (and I sincerely doubt it is) and it could be passed off as genuine to an unsuspecting buyer, he/she would likely only be devaluing it as the market for Victor is much stronger than that for HMV.

However I'm not sure why anyone would think the decal is a replacement or forgery anyway?

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by Inigo »

It seems a Frankenstein's made of parts collected here and there, all maybe original, but from clearly different eras.
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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by JerryVan »

Steve wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:03 am
JerryVan wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:51 am I see nothing wrong with it, except for what appears to be the wrong horn & elbow, as well as the curious decal.

Too bad we don't have a close-up photo of the decal area. I would be curious to see if there weren't 4 tiny nail holes from a Victor metal nameplate. I'm thinking the seller may have done an "upgrade" by applying a more interesting HMV decal. Judging by the Columbia in the background, the seller would seem to have the wherewithal to accomplish this modification.
But what would the seller achieve by turning a genuine Victor into a "fake" HMV? Even if this were true (and I sincerely doubt it is) and it could be passed off as genuine to an unsuspecting buyer, he/she would likely only be devaluing it as the market for Victor is much stronger than that for HMV.

However I'm not sure why anyone would think the decal is a replacement or forgery anyway?

The "unsuspecting" buyer would not know it's been devalued. Remember, it's on FB Marketplace, not the TMF, where we would know better. Besides, it was just a "what if". I never stated that's what really occurred.

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by Steve »

JerryVan wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:43 pm
Steve wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:03 am
JerryVan wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:51 am I see nothing wrong with it, except for what appears to be the wrong horn & elbow, as well as the curious decal.

Too bad we don't have a close-up photo of the decal area. I would be curious to see if there weren't 4 tiny nail holes from a Victor metal nameplate. I'm thinking the seller may have done an "upgrade" by applying a more interesting HMV decal. Judging by the Columbia in the background, the seller would seem to have the wherewithal to accomplish this modification.
But what would the seller achieve by turning a genuine Victor into a "fake" HMV? Even if this were true (and I sincerely doubt it is) and it could be passed off as genuine to an unsuspecting buyer, he/she would likely only be devaluing it as the market for Victor is much stronger than that for HMV.

However I'm not sure why anyone would think the decal is a replacement or forgery anyway?

The "unsuspecting" buyer would not know it's been devalued. Remember, it's on FB Marketplace, not the TMF, where we would know better. Besides, it was just a "what if". I never stated that's what really occurred.
I suppose my point is this: why bother to fake an HMV out of a more desirable Victor? Even if a novice on FB doesn't know the difference the seller has had to apply a repro transfer, then age it successfully (not easy), when all they had to do was to find a Victor metal ID plaque and nail it back on and sell it to a more lucrative market.

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Re: His Master’s Voice Outside Horn Machine Marblehead Mass

Post by gramophone-georg »

It IS a Victor O. See here:

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Everything seems correct except the cabinet decal and the horn, and the horn does look British to me. Could this have been imported and rebranded?
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