EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

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Steve
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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Steve »

Oedipus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:13 pm I had this answer from the auctioneers on September 15: ' Thank you for getting in touch with us. The soundbox and the tonearm end are present, and I have included some additional photographs of them here.'

I used to own this gramophone, many years ago, and the first thing you might like to know (which the auctioneers failed to mention, even though they had my Christie's catalogue description) is that it has a Garrard Super motor -- or did when I owned it. I was never certain if EMG did the conversion, but thought probably not. That lid was clearly purpose made, but somehow it didn't suggest EMG quality.

The oddities in the photos are indeed down to careless use of Photoshop to cut out the background. Oh, and when I first saw it, the estimate, I think, was £1000 - £1500, which seemed to me ok, if a little optimistic for a home-made Mark 8. I was astonished when I saw it had gone up to £4-6000. Perhaps the owner had heard of a Mark 10B Oversize and thought his must be worth the same -- it's rarer, after all, but the rarity of an object is often matched by the rarity of people who would want it.
I'm sure I know who will buy this and this person is a dealer.

As you say, the cabinet is intact and not malformed in any way which the auctioneers photos inadvertently make it appear to be due to clumsy Photoshop work.

Did the horn have the dent / hole through it when you owned it or is this more recent damage?

There is a letter from Frank James inside the book but I could not decipher the name it was written to. Of course the auctioneers couldn't give me any steer as to who has placed it in the sale or any other provenance.

I did suggest it was all converted professionally to them which was greeted with some surprise as if beyond question, when they took great strides to point out to me what they considered to be the single most obvious sign of this: the carving on the front. But, as we know, this was the original Gramophone Company's handiwork and has nothing to do with EMG!

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Orchorsol »

I still wonder whether this is an example of one of the 'D.I.Y. kits' that EMG offered - see advertisement appearing bottom left of p42 in Frank's book. It could be merely unclear photos, but the cutouts around the arm base and horn socket look a little rough and unprofessional. And I would expect an ivorine plague if EMG had converted it (my EMG conversion of a large Orchorsol cabinet has one).
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Steve
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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Steve »

I looked at the cutouts but they didn't appear any rougher than other early EMGs I've seen. They look quite sharp and tidy.

If it's a kit, it has been carried out professionally and isn't obviously different to an EMG commissioned conversion, sans plaque. In my honest opinion, of course. ;)

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Oedipus »

The plot thickens: the 'starting price' (whatever that is, we didn't have such a thing when I was in the auction business) is now £1800. But there are so far no bids. Quelle surprise...

I see that Cotswold Auctions have now followed my advice and included mention of the Garrard Super motor with its oil bath, but have then added, in bold, the extraordinary statement that it has a Garrard "four-spring motor. After 1927 the gramophones had electric motors" !!! Which gramophones? And who thought spring motors suddenly died in 1927? Oh, isn't it fun seeing the nonsense people write! (I've just checked and, as I thought, the Super has two springs, not four.)

I don't think there was any damage on the horn when I had it -- but it was forty years ago. Looking at the photos again I am reminded that there is a rather rough cut out round the tone-arm base, and I agree with Andy that this is probably a private conversion, by a competent woodworker, rather than one by EMG. Incidentally, there is a Decca needle bowl, not something I think EMG would have fitted, though of course that could have been added at any time. I can't remember if it was there when I had it, but if so it would have been another reason for my feeing that it was not an EMG conversion. EMG, of course, could fit any motor that the customer wanted, but in general they do not seem to have used the Garrard Super. Left to themselves, they tended to choose a Paillard motor or, later, Collaro.

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

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Oedipus wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:35 am The plot thickens: the 'starting price' (whatever that is, we didn't have such a thing when I was in the auction business) is now £1800. But there are so far no bids. Quelle surprise...

I see that Cotswold Auctions have now followed my advice and included mention of the Garrard Super motor with its oil bath, but have then added, in bold, the extraordinary statement that it has a Garrard "four-spring motor. After 1927 the gramophones had electric motors" !!! Which gramophones? And who thought spring motors suddenly died in 1927? Oh, isn't it fun seeing the nonsense people write! (I've just checked and, as I thought, the Super has two springs, not four.)

I don't think there was any damage on the horn when I had it -- but it was forty years ago. Looking at the photos again I am reminded that there is a rather rough cut out round the tone-arm base, and I agree with Andy that this is probably a private conversion, by a competent woodworker, rather than one by EMG. Incidentally, there is a Decca needle bowl, not something I think EMG would have fitted, though of course that could have been added at any time. I can't remember if it was there when I had it, but if so it would have been another reason for my feeing that it was not an EMG conversion. EMG, of course, could fit any motor that the customer wanted, but in general they do not seem to have used the Garrard Super. Left to themselves, they tended to choose a Paillard motor or, later, Collaro.
The increase in start bid is probably due to the discovery of the winding handle! Yes, the handle is worth £600 apparently!

Regarding EMG's choice of motor, I wonder if this has been re-re-motored. I still can't work out what those two blocked holes are on either side of the cabinet just below the "new" motorboard level?

One other question I wanted to ask you is whether you can confirm that the top of the cabinet (the gramophone itself) lifts off the lower record cabinet, which now includes the part which would have originally had both internal horn and motor inside it as an HMV Junior Grand? I forgot to check on Saturday.

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Oedipus »

Yes, the top certainly lifts off. I have been wondering about a double re-motoring, too, but I cannot remember what conclusion, if any, I came to when I had it. The blanked off hole in the upper section is not aligned with the original HMV hole, so if there was a first motor in the conversion, it was not the HMV motor re-used. The Super motor is on a link plate, which means the motor board will have been cut away in the centre, removing any evidence of another motor. I have an idea (but my memory is not to be relied on!) that the motor board is made from the original HMV lid.

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Steve
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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Steve »

Well, it didn't sell.......

I'm attempting to negotiate with the auctioneers but they're coming from a position that it cannot be sold much less than £3-4000.

If that turns out to be the vendor's final take on it, I'll gladly pass......

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by chunnybh »

Looks like the example pictured in Frank's book on page 35

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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by emgcr »

Yes, I am sure you are right Chunny---well spotted indeed and sorry not to have noticed this earlier ! What it is to have a memory !

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Steve
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Re: EMG Conversion with Wilson horn.

Post by Steve »

Interesting. I admit it's been well over 15 years since I last looked at Frank's book so I'd also forgotten that.

Do we know who might have owned it?

You won't be surprised to hear that despite what I considered to be a well reasoned case put to the auctioneers regarding the current market value of this machine, no one has given me the courtesy of a reply.

I presume the vendors are planning to keep it if they cannot achieve over £3000 for it.

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