Side wind HMV 100 !!!! ????

[Phono48]

Both of the side-winding 100s found so far are identical. I can't believe that two people have made identical "frankenphones", so reluctantly I come to the conclusion that they are both original.

Barry

[Steve]

I didn't take too much notice of the soundbox at first but I note it's German. Coincidence? I think not. I guess these were sent to the continent when Hayes was using up its obsolete product lines following the launch of the 101. With new cases pre-drilled for the 400 motor and the new rubber feet fitted, they didn't want to discard the innards of the old 100 model that they had left over. Meanwhile Hayes it seems had a penchant for dumping old stock overseas so this would actually make some sense. Rather than use everything up in the home market, it spread the old stock overseas, thus some 100s were assembled using the new 101 cases.

So far, both examples are either found in Germany or have German badged Exhibition soundboxes. But did they sell this anywhere else, I wonder?

[Steve]

Having had an opportunity to save the photos on a PC and scan them after considerably brightening the poor focus and rather dark images, I have spotted the filled in holes where a left handed lid stay and winding handle clips have been removed (and replaced) from the tonearm board. With a shorter throw on the side winder the original clips were ineffective for stowing away the handle in transit - note the peculiar arrangement in one photograph. The plot thickens........

I also note that the redundant lid stay has been fastened to both lid and base indicating that both parts belong together. If this was ever intended to be a 101 base, where is the corner needle drawer?

By the way, the other oddball 100 on German Ebay might look similar in a superficial way but on close inspection it's actually quite different to this machine. If one of these is genuine it does not necessarily follow that the other is the same!

[Steve]

Just a quick update on this machine for the three of us interested.

I have now seen it in the flesh and can confirm it looks exactly like you'd expect based on the seller's description ie. an original HMV conversion of the standard 100 to side winding variant. There are tell-tale holes in the motorboard which have been infilled where the handle clips have had to be moved for a shorter reach winding handle (note also the revised position in the photos) and also a couple of redundant holes for the original motor fixing. The latter have been doweled professionally and polished over to match the rest of the finish. The original winding hole in the cabinet has also been plugged with a wooden dowel but is far more noticeable under the rexine than the photos might indicate. The soundbox is probably a replacement. That's the good bit.

Unfortunately the gramophone is in a terrible state and any attempt to "prove" its authenticity will be fruitless as most buyers will be distracted by the amount of wood filler applied liberally to the case which has been painted matt black in an attempt to match it to the rexine. I don't recall ever seeing such a heavily battered portable case. It's clearly had a very hard life! Also, whilst the lid and base have clearly always belonged together, it was originally fitted with a left handed side stay, making it an early 100. However you'll note the lid tray is the standard later type as used on the more commonly seen 100 and 101 with ferrule; there are steel angles to support the hinged tray, not the leather type. Has the tray been replaced? The lid stay certainly has and it's been done very poorly by an amateur. I doubt it has anything to do with the genuine HMV retro-fit. There are various redundant holes and it doesn't sit straight but the screws are also non original. My best guess is that it genuinely started out as an early 100 with leather straps supporting the lid tray and a left handed lid stay. It didn't sell and was returned after the advent of the 101. HMV retro-fitted the new later 101 motor and sold it discounted through an authorised retailer.

From there it had a very hard life. The lid tray support got broken early on and was replaced with a later fitting. The lid stay got broken (not unusual if the number of "sun lounge" portables on Ebay is anything to go by) and replaced with the only option then available: the right handed type. This has been poorly fitted by an owner who then through hard use has had to adjust its position several times with new holes so it doesn't work very effectively. This owner probably knocked huge chunks out of the case in the bargain, which have been filled in with wood filler and painted over. The rexine is also so thin in places, it's barely even there. The whole case has been painted over before the rusty fittings have been re-fitted to the outside of it. I suspect the rexine is even missing in some areas but what you can see is the pattern marking it's left in the glue substrate under the layer of paint. Does it look authentic? Absolute not, but somewhere in amongst all the poor repairs and uncared for gramophone there is a true story of how HMV sold off some old stock, not-so-discretely modified with newer parts.

The seller on Ebay is very genuine and gracious and now realises that this is probably more of a car boot sale item than a machine for a collector hunting on Ebay. I have just one amusing anecdote to add: apparently there is at least one fanatical person on Facebook demanding to know the true provenance of this machine and how the seller knows what he does! For the avoidance of doubt I can confirm I've never been on Facebook either!.................

[epigramophone]

Not me either. I never have and never will enter the sewer which is social media.

[poodling around]

Just a quick update on this machine for the three of us interested.

I have now seen it in the flesh and can confirm it looks exactly like you'd expect based on the seller's description ie. an original HMV conversion of the standard 100 to side winding variant. There are tell-tale holes in the motorboard which have been infilled where the handle clips have had to be moved for a shorter reach winding handle (note also the revised position in the photos) and also a couple of redundant holes for the original motor fixing. The latter have been doweled professionally and polished over to match the rest of the finish. The original winding hole in the cabinet has also been plugged with a wooden dowel but is far more noticeable under the rexine than the photos might indicate. The soundbox is probably a replacement. That's the good bit.

Unfortunately the gramophone is in a terrible state and any attempt to "prove" its authenticity will be fruitless as most buyers will be distracted by the amount of wood filler applied liberally to the case which has been painted matt black in an attempt to match it to the rexine. I don't recall ever seeing such a heavily battered portable case. It's clearly had a very hard life! Also, whilst the lid and base have clearly always belonged together, it was originally fitted with a left handed side stay, making it an early 100. However you'll note the lid tray is the standard later type as used on the more commonly seen 100 and 101 with ferrule; there are steel angles to support the hinged tray, not the leather type. Has the tray been replaced? The lid stay certainly has and it's been done very poorly by an amateur. I doubt it has anything to do with the genuine HMV retro-fit. There are various redundant holes and it doesn't sit straight but the screws are also non original. My best guess is that it genuinely started out as an early 100 with leather straps supporting the lid tray and a left handed lid stay. It didn't sell and was returned after the advent of the 101. HMV retro-fitted the new later 101 motor and sold it discounted through an authorised retailer.

From there it had a very hard life. The lid tray support got broken early on and was replaced with a later fitting. The lid stay got broken (not unusual if the number of "sun lounge" portables on Ebay is anything to go by) and replaced with the only option then available: the right handed type. This has been poorly fitted by an owner who then through hard use has had to adjust its position several times with new holes so it doesn't work very effectively. This owner probably knocked huge chunks out of the case in the bargain, which have been filled in with wood filler and painted over. The rexine is also so thin in places, it's barely even there. The whole case has been painted over before the rusty fittings have been re-fitted to the outside of it. I suspect the rexine is even missing in some areas but what you can see is the pattern marking it's left in the glue substrate under the layer of paint. Does it look authentic? Absolute not, but somewhere in amongst all the poor repairs and uncared for gramophone there is a true story of how HMV sold off some old stock, not-so-discretely modified with newer parts.

The seller on Ebay is very genuine and gracious and now realises that this is probably more of a car boot sale item than a machine for a collector hunting on Ebay. I have just one amusing anecdote to add: apparently there is at least one fanatical person on Facebook demanding to know the true provenance of this machine and how the seller knows what he does! For the avoidance of doubt I can confirm I've never been on Facebook either!.................

Thanks Steve. I have really enjoyed reading your comments about this item. Very informative too.

Just noticed as a side issue, that it sold for £194.89 - which is quite a high amount perhaps.

[Phono48]

Thanks for postings your findings Steve, you've answered a lot of questions and assumptions.

Barry

[Steve]

Just a quick update on this machine for the three of us interested.

I have now seen it in the flesh and can confirm it looks exactly like you'd expect based on the seller's description ie. an original HMV conversion of the standard 100 to side winding variant. There are tell-tale holes in the motorboard which have been infilled where the handle clips have had to be moved for a shorter reach winding handle (note also the revised position in the photos) and also a couple of redundant holes for the original motor fixing. The latter have been doweled professionally and polished over to match the rest of the finish. The original winding hole in the cabinet has also been plugged with a wooden dowel but is far more noticeable under the rexine than the photos might indicate. The soundbox is probably a replacement. That's the good bit.

Unfortunately the gramophone is in a terrible state and any attempt to "prove" its authenticity will be fruitless as most buyers will be distracted by the amount of wood filler applied liberally to the case which has been painted matt black in an attempt to match it to the rexine. I don't recall ever seeing such a heavily battered portable case. It's clearly had a very hard life! Also, whilst the lid and base have clearly always belonged together, it was originally fitted with a left handed side stay, making it an early 100. However you'll note the lid tray is the standard later type as used on the more commonly seen 100 and 101 with ferrule; there are steel angles to support the hinged tray, not the leather type. Has the tray been replaced? The lid stay certainly has and it's been done very poorly by an amateur. I doubt it has anything to do with the genuine HMV retro-fit. There are various redundant holes and it doesn't sit straight but the screws are also non original. My best guess is that it genuinely started out as an early 100 with leather straps supporting the lid tray and a left handed lid stay. It didn't sell and was returned after the advent of the 101. HMV retro-fitted the new later 101 motor and sold it discounted through an authorised retailer.

From there it had a very hard life. The lid tray support got broken early on and was replaced with a later fitting. The lid stay got broken (not unusual if the number of "sun lounge" portables on Ebay is anything to go by) and replaced with the only option then available: the right handed type. This has been poorly fitted by an owner who then through hard use has had to adjust its position several times with new holes so it doesn't work very effectively. This owner probably knocked huge chunks out of the case in the bargain, which have been filled in with wood filler and painted over. The rexine is also so thin in places, it's barely even there. The whole case has been painted over before the rusty fittings have been re-fitted to the outside of it. I suspect the rexine is even missing in some areas but what you can see is the pattern marking it's left in the glue substrate under the layer of paint. Does it look authentic? Absolute not, but somewhere in amongst all the poor repairs and uncared for gramophone there is a true story of how HMV sold off some old stock, not-so-discretely modified with newer parts.

The seller on Ebay is very genuine and gracious and now realises that this is probably more of a car boot sale item than a machine for a collector hunting on Ebay. I have just one amusing anecdote to add: apparently there is at least one fanatical person on Facebook demanding to know the true provenance of this machine and how the seller knows what he does! For the avoidance of doubt I can confirm I've never been on Facebook either!.................

Thanks Steve. I have really enjoyed reading your comments about this item. Very informative too.

Just noticed as a side issue, that it sold for £194.89 - which is quite a high amount perhaps.

Trust me, it hasn't sold and that's all I can say about it really.

[Steve]

Thanks for postings your findings Steve, you've answered a lot of questions and assumptions.

Barry

You're welcome, Barry. It was a mystery and it got the better of me. I'm glad I was able to find out what it really is, for better or worse.

[poodling around]

Just a quick update on this machine for the three of us interested.

I have now seen it in the flesh and can confirm it looks exactly like you'd expect based on the seller's description ie. an original HMV conversion of the standard 100 to side winding variant. There are tell-tale holes in the motorboard which have been infilled where the handle clips have had to be moved for a shorter reach winding handle (note also the revised position in the photos) and also a couple of redundant holes for the original motor fixing. The latter have been doweled professionally and polished over to match the rest of the finish. The original winding hole in the cabinet has also been plugged with a wooden dowel but is far more noticeable under the rexine than the photos might indicate. The soundbox is probably a replacement. That's the good bit.

Unfortunately the gramophone is in a terrible state and any attempt to "prove" its authenticity will be fruitless as most buyers will be distracted by the amount of wood filler applied liberally to the case which has been painted matt black in an attempt to match it to the rexine. I don't recall ever seeing such a heavily battered portable case. It's clearly had a very hard life! Also, whilst the lid and base have clearly always belonged together, it was originally fitted with a left handed side stay, making it an early 100. However you'll note the lid tray is the standard later type as used on the more commonly seen 100 and 101 with ferrule; there are steel angles to support the hinged tray, not the leather type. Has the tray been replaced? The lid stay certainly has and it's been done very poorly by an amateur. I doubt it has anything to do with the genuine HMV retro-fit. There are various redundant holes and it doesn't sit straight but the screws are also non original. My best guess is that it genuinely started out as an early 100 with leather straps supporting the lid tray and a left handed lid stay. It didn't sell and was returned after the advent of the 101. HMV retro-fitted the new later 101 motor and sold it discounted through an authorised retailer.

From there it had a very hard life. The lid tray support got broken early on and was replaced with a later fitting. The lid stay got broken (not unusual if the number of "sun lounge" portables on Ebay is anything to go by) and replaced with the only option then available: the right handed type. This has been poorly fitted by an owner who then through hard use has had to adjust its position several times with new holes so it doesn't work very effectively. This owner probably knocked huge chunks out of the case in the bargain, which have been filled in with wood filler and painted over. The rexine is also so thin in places, it's barely even there. The whole case has been painted over before the rusty fittings have been re-fitted to the outside of it. I suspect the rexine is even missing in some areas but what you can see is the pattern marking it's left in the glue substrate under the layer of paint. Does it look authentic? Absolute not, but somewhere in amongst all the poor repairs and uncared for gramophone there is a true story of how HMV sold off some old stock, not-so-discretely modified with newer parts.

The seller on Ebay is very genuine and gracious and now realises that this is probably more of a car boot sale item than a machine for a collector hunting on Ebay. I have just one amusing anecdote to add: apparently there is at least one fanatical person on Facebook demanding to know the true provenance of this machine and how the seller knows what he does! For the avoidance of doubt I can confirm I've never been on Facebook either!.................

Thanks Steve. I have really enjoyed reading your comments about this item. Very informative too.

Just noticed as a side issue, that it sold for £194.89 - which is quite a high amount perhaps.

Trust me, it hasn't sold and that's all I can say about it really.

Ooooh ! ......... intriguing .........please do elaborate ...........