Grading 78 rpm Shellac Discs ??

[Inigo]

Of course, it is subjective.... Non intrusive probably meaning that you still can concentrate on listening to the music and its subtleties despite the noise of the record. Intrusive probably means those records where the groove hiss and crackle are so pronounced that they distract from the music.... I feel these appreciations are addressed to an habituated listener of 78s , of course. To a non initiated listener, the slightest groove noise can be felt as intrusive, as I've experienced some times!

[bart1927]

I'm not a big fan of the VJM system, but it's all we've got.

The first issue I have with it , is that when you read the various descriptions, there's very little difference between E+, E and E-. E+ is described as playing like new, with maybe some small scuffs. Then there's E, still near new and shiny, but with a few inaudible scuffs and scratches. So basically the difference between E and E+ is just a few superficial scratches? Then there's E-, still shiny, few light scratches, but missing the "lustre" of a new record. So what does this tell you about the difference between E and E-? The only difference you can tell from the description is that with E any scratches are inaudible, and with E- the description does not mention if the scratches sound or not. Also E- apparently doesn't have lustre, whatever that may be.

And then all of a sudden, we take a step down to V+: average condition 78, moderate wear, but playing is generally free from distortion.

Based on the description, V+ is a lot worse than E-, while it's only one step down. The other 3 grades seem to be much closer together.

Also, it's not consistent. Why does not every grade description mention the same parameters? Why does one grade mention a certain amount of wear, and the other not? With E- there is no mention of wear, only the vague term "lustre" is used, but in my experience, records that are sold as E- generally have a little visible graying, though not much.

And why is it that one time wear is assessed visually (near new looking) and in other cases aurally? (plays like new?)

The latter is also a problem, because most sellers grade visually only. But how can you use the VJM system if you don't play the records? It's a bit hard to determine the level of surface noise or the audibility of a small scratch just by looking at the records. Especially because some records can look worn but sound surprisingly good, while others look unplayed but crackle and pop like crazy.

In my experience, and I've bought lots of 78's online, grading is all over the place. One seller calls a certain record E, another will say it's E+, and according to the 3rd one it's V++.

So what I do is I try to buy my records (online) from sellers that I've dealt with before. That way I develop a feeling for how they grade their records. There's a dealer on Ebay that grades a little optimistic in my opinion, but he's also pretty consistent. So I know that if he claims a record is E-, chances are that I believe it's more like V+ or V++. So I take that into account.

Sellers that grade inconsistently I tend to avoid. I'd rather buy from buyers that grade too high but in a consistent way than buy from those whose grading is all over the place.

[gramophone-georg]

The standard grading system for 78s is the one created by Vintage Jazz Mart. Info here:

https://www.vjm.biz/grading.html

Yes, it's subjective, but it's also pretty much universally accepted at this point.

Thank you for the response. I am familiar with this grading system. The problem I have with grading is that all the 78 rpm disc that I've seen are now hard and brittle. When I put one on an electric turntable and even with the volume turned completely down, I can hear the needle as it moves across the surface of the record. So using this system, how could a 78 rpm shellac record ever grade higher than V? :

V (78) G (LP). Moderate, even wear throughout, but still very playable. Surface noise and scratches audible but not intrusive.

How do you determine if the surface noise in "not intrusive", which would give it a V rating, or "Surface noise not overly pronounced", which would give it a VG+ rating?

V+ (78) G+ LP. V+ is an average condition 78 in which scuffs and general use has dulled the finish somewhat. Wear is moderate but playing is generally free from distortion. Surface noise not overly pronounced. LP: Below average with scuffs and scratches on fewer than half the tracks. No skips or repeat grooves.

Is there some other tip anyone could offer that they use to decide if you have a V or a VG+ disc?

Thanks in advance!

hydnar

A lot of this really depends what you are playing it on, and with size of stylus. If you are playing it on stereo equipment, realize that you are getting two channels of noise to one of sound. Also, different stylus sizes make a huge difference. If you are using too small a stylus, you're riding the bottom of the groove which can make an E record sound V or V-, or worse.

On correct vintage equipment that uses steel needles, the compliance of the pickup is huge. Also, I have noticed that some longer life needles, or "Siren" needles, are made of a composition that can drive surface noise through the roof.

On my offerings, I give them both a visual grade and a play grade, and I listen to them on my 1933 RCA 331 Duo with NOS Victor Chromium needles. The horseshoe magnetic pickup has been expertly rebuilt with new rubber dampers and this really cuts down the needle talk. I will also note any defects and their effect on play. Thus, my descriptions usually go something like "Visual E-, plays E+ with one needle drop that clicks 3x but passes just fine". I haven't had any complaints in many years of doing things this way. As a safety net for buyers, I have always offered a satisfaction guarantee stating that if the buyer is unhappy with the purchase for any reason, they can return and I will refund full purchase price AND return shipping upon receipt of the record back. I think I have done this maybe a handful of times over 30+ years and many thousands of record sales worldwide.

[drh]

...As a safety net for buyers, I have always offered a satisfaction guarantee stating that if the buyer is unhappy with the purchase for any reason, they can return and I will refund full purchase price AND return shipping upon receipt of the record back. I think I have done this maybe a handful of times over 30+ years and many thousands of record sales worldwide.

Worth noting: recently I was one of those "handful" of returns, for reasons entirely my fault--I bought a record from George only to discover shortly thereafter that I already had a copy in a batch of 78s that had come to me shortly before and that I hadn't reviewed at the time. George couldn't have been nicer about working things out with me so that I didn't end up with two copies of the same record. He really does stand behind what he sells!

[AudioFeline]

Visual grading can also be distorted with a spray of furniture polish so the record has a nice gloss.

[zenith82]

Visual grading can also be distorted with a spray of furniture polish so the record has a nice gloss.

And it can also dissolve the surface depending on what's in it!