Grading 78 rpm Shellac Discs ??

[hydnar]

Hello All!

I will preface this request with the statement that if this is not the right place to post this query, please reply and I will remove it immediately.

I am trying to get a sense of the proper way to grade 78 rpm shellac records. I have sold enough 33 rpm lps that I feel very confident in my ability to grade them, but I am just getting started with 78s. I know is a subjective task. I have uploaded both sides of a record I have to youtube. Would anyone care to take a look and listen and give me their opinion on grading? I have also attached some pics of the record.

Thanks in advance for anyone who participates!

hydnar

Arkansas Travellers - Washboard Blues / Boneyard Shuffle - Harmony 332-H 78 rpm 10"

[YouTubeHD]https://youtu.be/Gk01-vfGoPQ[/YouTubeHD]
[YouTubeHD]https://youtu.be/mFibFBL_bfg[/YouTubeHD]

[52089]

The standard grading system for 78s is the one created by Vintage Jazz Mart. Info here:

https://www.vjm.biz/grading.html

Yes, it's subjective, but it's also pretty much universally accepted at this point.

[CarlosV]

With the caveat of the limited quality of reproduction imparted by you tube, I would rate the record as VG+. Harmony pressings when in good condition are very good, with low background noise. I heard quite some clicks and pops (sign of scratches in the record) as well as background noise. The wear is easier to discern in a live audition, but it seemed pretty good from that standpoint. But this is very subjective, including the popularly adopted criterion referred above, which in itself is not consistent, mixing up visual with sonic condition (shiny surface etc).

[Roaring20s]

With the caveat of the limited quality of reproduction imparted by you tube, I would rate the record as VG+. Harmony pressings when in good condition are very good, with low background noise. I heard quite some clicks and pops (sign of scratches in the record) as well as background noise. The wear is easier to discern in a live audition, but it seemed pretty good from that standpoint. But this is very subjective, including the popularly adopted criterion referred above, which in itself is not consistent, mixing up visual with sonic condition (shiny surface etc).

I agree, the audio is V+, but on the higher end of the grade.
The damaged label will hold down its collectability value, but never the enjoyment value.
Nice snappy tunes by Red and Miff.

James.

[drh]

For whatever it's worth, on the strength of having intensively waded through hundreds of duplicates in the past couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that visual grading is generally unreliable. (I'll make an exception for Larry Holdridge; his grading is reliably conservative to a fault.) I can't tell you the number of times a copy of something that looked pristine broke up on peaks or otherwise misbehaved while one that looked second-rate or worse played like a dream. Mind you, I focus on distortion more than surface noise, and I don't run around buying things that look like beat-up wrecks on the theory they'll still play great, but still, the proof of the proverbial pudding seems to be distinctly in the eating. Listening. Whatever.

[Roaring20s]

... I've come to the conclusion that visual grading is generally unreliable. ...

The best example I've encountered is this is when I wanted to upgrade a copy of a disc. My disc looked V- and played V. Bought a visual replacement that was V+ and it played a worse than mine. The problem seemed to be that the stampers were used beyond its life.

James.

[Orchorsol]

All exactly so... The VJM system is great in principle*, perhaps the best and certainly the most universal and well understood, yet it's so subjective that I find gradings can vary wildly between sellers (even those with good feedback), plus a glowing record can sound poor if the stamper was worn or temperature control wasn't optimal when it was pressed...

* Except that it's somewhat misleading by definition, when "very good" actually means average, fairly mediocre!

[hydnar]

The standard grading system for 78s is the one created by Vintage Jazz Mart. Info here:

https://www.vjm.biz/grading.html

Yes, it's subjective, but it's also pretty much universally accepted at this point.

Thank you for the response. I am familiar with this grading system. The problem I have with grading is that all the 78 rpm disc that I've seen are now hard and brittle. When I put one on an electric turntable and even with the volume turned completely down, I can hear the needle as it moves across the surface of the record. So using this system, how could a 78 rpm shellac record ever grade higher than V? :

V (78) G (LP). Moderate, even wear throughout, but still very playable. Surface noise and scratches audible but not intrusive.

How do you determine if the surface noise in "not intrusive", which would give it a V rating, or "Surface noise not overly pronounced", which would give it a VG+ rating?

V+ (78) G+ LP. V+ is an average condition 78 in which scuffs and general use has dulled the finish somewhat. Wear is moderate but playing is generally free from distortion. Surface noise not overly pronounced. LP: Below average with scuffs and scratches on fewer than half the tracks. No skips or repeat grooves.

Is there some other tip anyone could offer that they use to decide if you have a V or a VG+ disc?

Thanks in advance!

hydnar

[ddamico361]

I am kinda new to collecting 78s. Is it reasonable to expect low surface noise on a record around 100 years old? Even if new, it has still existed decades and been exposed to possible dust and particles. I would think an electric pickup would bring out the smallest imperfection.

David Damico
LeRoy, NY

[JerryVan]

The standard grading system for 78s is the one created by Vintage Jazz Mart. Info here:

https://www.vjm.biz/grading.html

Yes, it's subjective, but it's also pretty much universally accepted at this point.

Thank you for the response. I am familiar with this grading system. The problem I have with grading is that all the 78 rpm disc that I've seen are now hard and brittle. When I put one on an electric turntable and even with the volume turned completely down, I can hear the needle as it moves across the surface of the record. So using this system, how could a 78 rpm shellac record ever grade higher than V? :

V (78) G (LP). Moderate, even wear throughout, but still very playable. Surface noise and scratches audible but not intrusive.

How do you determine if the surface noise in "not intrusive", which would give it a V rating, or "Surface noise not overly pronounced", which would give it a VG+ rating?

V+ (78) G+ LP. V+ is an average condition 78 in which scuffs and general use has dulled the finish somewhat. Wear is moderate but playing is generally free from distortion. Surface noise not overly pronounced. LP: Below average with scuffs and scratches on fewer than half the tracks. No skips or repeat grooves.

Is there some other tip anyone could offer that they use to decide if you have a V or a VG+ disc?

Thanks in advance!

hydnar

A phrase which I have found to be helpful is, "Surface noise exceeds recorded sound". To me, that describes well the tipping point at which I usually won't consider purchasing a record. I would guess that gradewise, it's a V-/G+ example, or maybe even G+/G- range.

Either way, you never know till you play it. Of course, how you play it also factors in. A 78 played with an electrical pick-up may grade G+. I play all my records on Orthophonic Victrolas. Being less sensitve than electrical pick-ups, the Orthophonic playback may sound more like VG+.

Just my 2 cents...