Edison Triumph problem

[drh]

A few days ago, I tried playing a cylinder on my Edison Triumph Model B, pictured below, which had been behaving itself ever since a service call a few months ago, but instead of traveling across the cylinder the carriage just sat there while the machine made clicking noises. Saturday I noticed the set screw circled in one of the photos, loosened it, rotated the sliding tube to increase down pressure on the half nut (at the same time slightly shifting the carrier to the right, to address a separate issue of the machine frequently running out of feed screw before the music ends when cylinders fit too far to the right on the mandrel), re-tightened the set screw, and was happy to find the problem solved. Yesterday, seeking to pass the time while in "social distancing" mode, I went on a cylinder binge. Eight four-minute cylinders played without a hitch. With the ninth, however, the "stall and click" problem came back. I've tried doing the same "loosen set screw-rotate tube" technique again, but no matter how I set it the carriage remains stalled and the machine just clicks. I tried a two-minute cylinder with the same results. I'm attaching a few seconds' video showing the problem.

I'll confess, I'm becoming frustrated with this machine; I bought it to be my workhorse player, and when it's "on" it's the best sounding cylinder machine I've heard, but by now it's been to two highly skilled technicians (both forum members) who have done their best with it, one more than once, each getting it up and running OK for a while, but the fixes never "stick"--it *still* keeps developing flaky problems. Anybody have any ideas what's wrong?

https://youtu.be/CS1_7v4Xc0Y

[phonojim]

I have had similar problems with my Triumph D-2 over the years. First try disconnecting the horn from the reproducer and see how it acts. If it works properly, reattach the horn and try pulling up slightly on the suspension spring. At the same time you may need to press down on the front of the carriage so that it contacts the bar in order to maintain feedscrew/nut contact. Pressing down on the feedscrew may work also. Note:only apply as much pressure as neccessary to keep the feednut in contact. If this works, you will need to raise the horn to take pressure off the carriage. Another thing to check is the feednut. Be sure it is not assembled backwards.They are designed to work properly in only one direction. The way to tell is by lowering the carriage to the play position and trying to move the carriage in both directions by gently pushing it with your hand. It should not move to the left, but you should be able to move to the right. Also, see how easily the carriage slides back and forth with and without the horn attached. It should slide very smoothly with no binding or rough spots. Good luck with it. Feel free to PM me.

Jim

[JerryVan]

Jim makes an excellent point with regard to the feed nut possibly being mounted backwards. The issue is that the threads are not of a style we are used to seeing, with a "V" shaped cross section, but are actually referred to as buttress threads with more of an "N" shaped form. See below, as explained by Eric Reiss, in his excellent "The Complete Talking Machine".

[drh]

I have had similar problems with my Triumph D-2 over the years. ... Another thing to check is the feednut. Be sure it is not assembled backwards.They are designed to work properly in only one direction. The way to tell is by lowering the carriage to the play position and trying to move the carriage in both directions by gently pushing it with your hand. It should not move to the left, but you should be able to move to the right. ...

Jim

To quote Robert Schumann when he first heard a work by the young Chopin, "Hats off, gentlemen. A genius!" I first disconnected the horn with no effect. When I tried the test for a reversed half nut, however, I quickly determined that while it would move to the right with great reluctance, it moved much more easily to the left. Taking my heart in my hands (I was just sure fumblethumbs here would drop and lose one of the tiny screws), I unfastened, flipped, and refastened the half nut and--voila!--no more clickies, no more stalled carrier, and the machine just played a blue amberol perfectly. When lowered onto the feed screw, the newly positioned half nut locks so firmly into the threads that it won't move in *either* direction, at least not without some pretty serious force. I'll know more when I've played more than one cylinder, but from the results so far I think you nailed the problem. Thank you! If we lived closer, the restaurants were not all closed by government decree, and we weren't forbidden to socialize in groups larger than one, I'd treat you to lunch!

One other question: as I have it adjusted now, the front leg of the carrier doesn't quite ride on the rail in play--it's up by maybe the thickness of a hardbound book's front cover. I'm remembering during one of the machine's service calls I was told there in fact should be a bit of clearance. Is that too much? I'll confess, if the machine is working, I'm loath to make more adjustments on the "if it ain't broke" principle, but at the same time I don't want to cause undue wear or other injury that may manifest only over time.

[drh]

Jim makes an excellent point with regard to the feed nut possibly being mounted backwards. The issue is that the threads are not of a style we are used to seeing, with a "V" shaped cross section, but are actually referred to as buttress threads with more of an "N" shaped form. See below, as explained by Eric Reiss, in his excellent "The Complete Talking Machine".

...and thanks to you, too, for the explanation. Now I know the "why" behind the "what." The sad thing is that I actually have a copy of the Reiss book around here somewhere, and I never thought to look at it.

[JerryVan]

I have had similar problems with my Triumph D-2 over the years. ... Another thing to check is the feednut. Be sure it is not assembled backwards.They are designed to work properly in only one direction. The way to tell is by lowering the carriage to the play position and trying to move the carriage in both directions by gently pushing it with your hand. It should not move to the left, but you should be able to move to the right. ...

Jim

To quote Robert Schumann when he first heard a work by the young Chopin, "Hats off, gentlemen. A genius!" I first disconnected the horn with no effect. When I tried the test for a reversed half nut, however, I quickly determined that while it would move to the right with great reluctance, it moved much more easily to the left. Taking my heart in my hands (I was just sure fumblethumbs here would drop and lose one of the tiny screws), I unfastened, flipped, and refastened the half nut and--voila!--no more clickies, no more stalled carrier, and the machine just played a blue amberol perfectly. When lowered onto the feed screw, the newly positioned half nut locks so firmly into the threads that it won't move in *either* direction, at least not without some pretty serious force. I'll know more when I've played more than one cylinder, but from the results so far I think you nailed the problem. Thank you! If we lived closer, the restaurants were not all closed by government decree, and we weren't forbidden to socialize in groups larger than one, I'd treat you to lunch!

One other question: as I have it adjusted now, the front leg of the carrier doesn't quite ride on the rail in play--it's up by maybe the thickness of a hardbound book's front cover. I'm remembering during one of the machine's service calls I was told there in fact should be a bit of clearance. Is that too much? I'll confess, if the machine is working, I'm loath to make more adjustments on the "if it ain't broke" principle, but at the same time I don't want to cause undue wear or other injury that may manifest only over time.

You should not have that gap. Doing so will add drag and possibly prematurely wear the feed nut. Relieve the spring pressure to eliminate the gap, then with the carriage lowered, as if playing a cylinder, gently loosen the feed nut screws. This will allow the feed nut to float a bit and nest perfectly into position over the feed screw. While pushing down gently on the feed nut, tighten the screws again. Now you know you've got good alignment between the screw & the nut.

[phonojim]

I'm glad to hear that you fixed the problem. I don't have my Reiss book handy, but I know he addresses the feednut adjustment issue. My Triumph is a model D2 and is equipped with a setscrew to adjust feednut pressure, which can be done even while the machine is playing a record.
Thanks, Jerry for providing the diagram.

Jim

[Governor Flyball]

I have had about 40 years experience with this Triumph problem. There are a few issues here when addressed, will ensure reliable performance.

1. The carriage (with the horn detached) should rest fully on the front carriage rail when the reproduced is lowered. The feednut should engage when the carriage rail gap is between 1/16" and no more than ⅛". Only the lightest feednut pressure on the feedscrew is required.

2. My model B with the 4 minute option included a different feednut spring. It was not straight like the 2 minute spring but was made crooked to better accommodate the new 4 minute feedscrew. (See attached photo). I have seen a few model B machines like yours without the modified feednut spring and can suggest that the new 4 minute feednut spring in the attachment kit was not installed as instructed?
Move the carriage to the end stop like mine in the photo and the feednut should be aligned with the gap between the end of the feedscrew and the feed screw collet as depicted.

3. Feed Nut alignment: The last important adjustment is to ensure the threads of the feednut line up properly in line with the feed screw. You will notice the two screws on the feednut spring holding it to the carriage. Loosen the two screws, lower the carriage so the feednut engages the feed screw and while lightly applying downward pressure on the feednut with your finger, gently move the carriage slightly to and fro until the feednut is properly seated into the thread of the feedscrew. This is an especially important adjustment for if the feedback is not properly seated, the feed will be intermittent and will be guaranteed to slip.

[fran604g]

I have had about 40 years experience with this Triumph problem. There are a few issues here when addressed, will ensure reliable performance.

3. Feed Nut alignment: The last important adjustment is to ensure the threads of the feednut line up properly in line with the feed screw. You will notice the two screws on the feednut spring holding it to the carriage. Loosen the two screws, lower the carriage so the feednut engages the feed screw and while lightly applying downward pressure on the feednut with your finger, gently move the carriage slightly to and fro until the feednut is properly seated into the thread of the feedscrew. This is an especially important adjustment for if the feedback is not properly seated, the feed will be intermittent and will be guaranteed to slip.

^^^this is the best advice I've seen given yet. And is true for all models. I think it's one of the most overlooked adjustments that needs to be addressed when a phonograph skips.

And just for posterity, my Model A Triumph has 2 halfnuts - each of which MUST engage the feedscrew threads squarely.

Best,
Fran

[drh]

I have had about 40 years experience with this Triumph problem. There are a few issues here when addressed, will ensure reliable performance.

1. The carriage (with the horn detached) should rest fully on the front carriage rail when the reproduced is lowered. The feednut should engage when the carriage rail gap is between 1/16" and no more than ⅛". Only the lightest feednut pressure on the feedscrew is required.

2. My model B with the 4 minute option included a different feednut spring. It was not straight like the 2 minute spring but was made crooked to better accommodate the new 4 minute feedscrew. (See attached photo). I have seen a few model B machines like yours without the modified spring and can suggest that the 4 minute attachment kit instructions were not properly followed? Move the carriage to the end stop like mine in the photo and the feednut should be aligned with the gap between the end of the feedscrew and the feed screw collect as depicted.

3. Feed Nut alignment: The last important adjustment is to ensure the threads of the feednut line up properly in line with the feed screw. You will notice the two screws on the feednut spring holding it to the carriage. Loosen the two screws, lower the carriage so the feednut engages the feed screw and while lightly applying downward pressure on the feednut with your finger, gently move the carriage slightly to and fro until the feednut is properly seated into the thread of the feedscrew. This is an especially important adjustment for if the feedback is not properly seated, the feed will be intermittent and will be guaranteed to slip.

Thank you for all that, which explains why my machine, as it came to me, tended to run out of feed screw before it ran out of cylinder with surprising frequency. I'd actually toyed with the idea of somehow making a little extender to jut from the left edge of the spring; now I see that if it were properly equipped the spring would have been designed that way to begin with. Instead, once I figured out about that set screw circled in one of my photos in the original post, I shifted the carriage somewhat to the right relative to the spring before retightening it.

I've now rotated the sliding back tube to eliminate the gap between carrier and bar; I also double checked alignment of the half nut and made sure all the screws are good and tight (the backmost one holding the spring was loose, allowing the spring some lateral play). At this point the half nut engages the threads of the feed screw so securely that it cannot skim across them in either direction without more force than I'm willing to apply, and the machine played a succession of six or seven cylinders without any problems. Fingers crossed!