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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:35 am 
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Victor II
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Posts: 499
Location: Hayden, ID
Zwebie wrote:
Hey Raphael, I'm conflicted!

It's like two halves of a TWIX, It looks Great Either Way!

Cheers, Bob S.


I have to agree with Bob. They both look good and both have their merits.

Bob Johnson was mentioned here which reminded me of a very rare, complete and original Auxetophone he had. It is one of just a few original examples known. The original motor/blower was seized and non-functional. Should he have left the motor seized because it was "original"? He had Paul Baker restore the original motor to perfection. I am very pleased that he brought back this very rare example and I was able to hear an original play. But now it's not original. What happens when your spring breaks? Replace/repair or leave original? Rebuild a reproducer? How is this any different from cleaning up the finish?


Last edited by MTPhono on Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:23 am 
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Victor III
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:44 am
Posts: 923
Location: Davie, FL
MTPhono wrote:
Zwebie wrote:
Hey Raphael, I'm conflicted!

It's like two halves of a TWIX, It looks Great Either Way!

Cheers, Bob S.


I have to agree with Bob. They both look good and both have their merits.

Bob Johnson was mentioned here which reminded me of a very rare, complete and original Auxetophone he had. It is one of just a few original examples known. The original motor/blower was seized and non-functional. Should he have left the motor seized because it was "original"? I am very pleased that he brought back this very rare example and I was able to hear an original play. But now it's not original. What happens when your spring breaks? Replace/repair or leave original? Rebuild a reproducer? How is this any different from cleaning up the finish?



Interesting points, and in line with my purposes when creating this discussion. I wanted to go beneath the surface, so to speak, not just hear opinionated proselytizing.

You mentioned Bob S, ("Zwebie"). He is a friend of mine, and we have bought and sold various items to each other over the years. I respect his restoration talents greatly. Forum members may recall when he restored a mahogany MS, one of only two known to exist. Everybody went gaga over it. I don't have the "before" pictures, but will post an "after" one here, as it is in my collection now. I replaced the newer leather elbow with an original, at great expense.


Raphael


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:57 am 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:31 pm
Posts: 1144
Location: New Hampshire’s West Coast
This is a forum and a place to exchange ideas, so I applaud Raphael for putting this example before us for discussion. I don’t believe that the machine was over-restored or ruined. I think that it was beautiful before and after. I also think that it is beautiful now and that it will probably hold up better for having been refurbished.

Even after so many years of working on phonographs I still feel a little strange when I take something apart knowing that it was assembled by someone long gone. You can feel the history and I try not to disturb anything more than necessary, but sometimes it is preferable.

Some may remember a Canadian Berliner that I restored a while back. The machine had been converted to a string drive. I actually considered preserving it as a string drive, (weight driven or pull start machine), but in the end I went with a fairly extensive restoration. I still have mixed feelings about that one because the modification was so cool and done so long ago.

I was also more recently parting out a VV-XII that had great components, but a cabinet that had been stripped, badly repaired and appeared to have had a number of attempted restorations done, (each one making it worse). Eventually, I decided to try my hand at restoring the cabinet. It is not original, (but it wasn’t original when I started either), but it is now presentable and I can enjoy it. My point is that I could have left it alone, but not been willing or able to enjoy it, I could have put the parts on eBay, but I couldn’t seem to let myself, or I could make an attempt to bring it forward and make it presentable. I think that what Raphael did made the machine more of a centerpiece. It may be a little less historic and may not be exactly as it left the factory, but it probably looks closer to the way that it did originally than it did when he received it. I think that IMHO it looks great and I also think that it was treated with respect. I also think that it takes courage to open this up for discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:32 am 
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Victor III
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:44 am
Posts: 923
Location: Davie, FL
Django wrote:
This is a forum and a place to exchange ideas, so I applaud Raphael for putting this example before us for discussion. I don’t believe that the machine was over-restored or ruined. I think that it was beautiful before and after. I also think that it is beautiful now and that it will probably hold up better for having been refurbished.

Even after so many years of working on phonographs I still feel a little strange when I take something apart knowing that it was assembled by someone long gone. You can feel the history and I try not to disturb anything more than necessary, but sometimes it is preferable.

Some may remember a Canadian Berliner that I restored a while back. The machine had been converted to a string drive. I actually considered preserving it as a string drive, (weight driven or pull start machine), but in the end I went with a fairly extensive restoration. I still have mixed feelings about that one because the modification was so cool and done so long ago.

I was also more recently parting out a VV-XII that had great components, but a cabinet that had been stripped, badly repaired and appeared to have had a number of attempted restorations done, (each one making it worse). Eventually, I decided to try my hand at restoring the cabinet. It is not original, (but it wasn’t original when I started either), but it is now presentable and I can enjoy it. My point is that I could have left it alone, but not been willing or able to enjoy it, I could have put the parts on eBay, but I couldn’t seem to let myself, or I could make an attempt to bring it forward and make it presentable. I think that what Raphael did made the machine more of a centerpiece. It may be a little less historic and may not be exactly as it left the factory, but it probably looks closer to the way that it did originally than it did when he received it. I think that IMHO it looks great and I also think that it was treated with respect. I also think that it takes courage to open this up for discussion.


Thank you for the kind words. But it didn't take courage, mostly it was the lockdown-induced need for a little liveliness.

Getting back to the gold trim, which seems to set some folks hair on fire, I did mention that perhaps the photography enhanced the brightness. So I took a photo of it, sans flash, and also cropped a "before" picture from Doug, and compared the two.

Raphael


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:01 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2351
Each to his own :D , but if your Grandfather had bought a brass horn gramophone in 1900 and it has remained in your family ever since and is still on display and treasured , is the brass horn polished ? or has it been allowed to tarnish and look unkempt ? of course it would still be as shiny as the day it left the factory ! The gramophones ( sorry phonographs ) you buy that are aged and shabby are so because they were unloved and in some cases tortured :evil: for many many years :( Raphael puts that love back and all praise to restorers

if you restored an Auxetophone ( earlier post ) and had to replace blower then you have to , but you can keep the old blower and perhaps one day someone can fix it :D

I would love to see some pics of machines still in your family now since purchase can someone please post ?

Windsor Castle burnt down in 1992 should it have been left as memory of the fire ?

https://www.rct.uk/visit/windsor-castle ... r-castle#/


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:38 am 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:31 pm
Posts: 1144
Location: New Hampshire’s West Coast
soundgen wrote:
Each to his own :D , but if your Grandfather had bought a brass horn gramophone in 1900 and it has remained in your family ever since and is still on display and treasured , is the brass horn polished ? or has it been allowed to tarnish and look unkempt ? of course it would still be as shiny as the day it left the factory ! The gramophones ( sorry phonographs ) you buy that are aged and shabby are so because they were unloved and in some cases tortured :evil: for many many years :( Raphael puts that love back and all praise to restorers

if you restored an Auxetophone ( earlier post ) and had to replace blower then you have to , but you can keep the old blower and perhaps one day someone can fix it :D

I would love to see some pics of machines still in your family now since purchase can someone please post ?

Windsor Castle burnt down in should it have been left as memory of the fire ?

https://www.rct.uk/visit/windsor-castle ... r-castle#/


Regarding.“I would love to see some pics of machines still in your family now since purchase can someone please post ?“

Both of these machines were purchased from the original families. Neither were ever in storage. The 130 was still in the same space since new. Both still have their original albums.


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4EFFBF8B-0A1D-43F6-B82D-31FD160D20B1.jpeg [ 75.42 KiB | Viewed 251 times ]


Last edited by Django on Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:45 am 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 2351
Django wrote:
soundgen wrote:
Each to his own :D , but if your Grandfather had bought a brass horn gramophone in 1900 and it has remained in your family ever since and is still on display and treasured , is the brass horn polished ? or has it been allowed to tarnish and look unkempt ? of course it would still be as shiny as the day it left the factory ! The gramophones ( sorry phonographs ) you buy that are aged and shabby are so because they were unloved and in some cases tortured :evil: for many many years :( Raphael puts that love back and all praise to restorers

if you restored an Auxetophone ( earlier post ) and had to replace blower then you have to , but you can keep the old blower and perhaps one day someone can fix it :D

I would love to see some pics of machines still in your family now since purchase can someone please post ?

Windsor Castle burnt down in should it have been left as memory of the fire ?

https://www.rct.uk/visit/windsor-castle ... r-castle#/


Both of these machines were purchased from the original families. Neither were ever in storage. The 130 was still in the same space since new. Both still have their original albums.



bootiful as they say in Norfolk ! Keys as well ! :D


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:02 pm 
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Victor VI
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:08 pm
Posts: 3169
Location: Harrison Township, MI
I believe the restoration of the XX in question was done well & respectfully. That being said, to my liking, it was not needed. I preferred the warmth of the original. It had a "personality". I find the restored example to be "sterile". Not suggesting that it needed nothing, but less would have been more in this case. I don't mean any of this to be sarcastic or insulting. While I would be proud to have either version in my collection, for me, slightly imperfect originality tops perfect restoration.


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500 (Discussion)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:31 am 
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Victor VI
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Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 am
Posts: 3540
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...
To put it succinctly and bluntly:

Mechanical and functional restoration: YES.

Cosmetic restoration: it depends on what you have, and what you want to achieve. In the case of a rare machine like this, as long as you're using appropriate materials and techniques, do what you will where necessary.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: SOLD! Victor VV-XX VTLA - $7500
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:14 am 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:31 pm
Posts: 1144
Location: New Hampshire’s West Coast
Skihawx wrote:
I prefer the original look. I have recently picked up a second XX that has been partially stripped. Down to the bare wood in most places. Except for the doors. Because the doors are not stripped it is clear this machine never had any gold decorations. Now I can have one with and one without. This machine a prime example to spruce up. Actually it will need more than that. If you want the honest opinion, the one above reminds me of a 60 year old guy with gray hair that dyes it black. No warmth of the original. The little imperfections may be there just covered up in shoe black. Just looks wrong. Looking at a half dozen XX's over the years, none I've seen ever had actual gold leaf. They had gold powdered paint. Looks much more subtle and tasteful. The bright XX's to me look like they belong on Pennsylvania Ave in Baltimore.


Was this recently purchased XX from an estate sale discussed on the forum?


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