Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Discussions on Talking Machines & Accessories
Post Reply
User avatar
Zwebie
Victor IV
Posts: 1379
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:55 pm
Personal Text: We are only the caretakers for future generations.
Location: FLORIDA

Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by Zwebie »

I picked up a nice Red Banner Cased Home. It appears to be all original including the reproducer.
But one thing I have never seen before is an Unmarked Tail Weight on a "C" reproducer.
Is this common? Maybe it's early because it has a mica diaphragm and doesn't have the two drilled holes?

Curious, Bob S.
Attachments
20200627_161408.jpg
20200627_161419.jpg
20200627_161440.jpg

gsphonos
Victor II
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by gsphonos »

Hi Bob,

Yes, it is early! Congrats on a great find. It took me years and years until I finally found one!

Mike Sorter
Riverside, CA

User avatar
Valecnik
Victor VI
Posts: 3828
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:28 pm
Personal Text: Edison Records - Close your eyes and see if the artist does not actually seem to be before you.
Location: Česká Republika
Contact:

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by Valecnik »

Wow yes it is early, serial no. 3080!

EdisonReproducers
Victor Jr
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 pm

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by EdisonReproducers »

The first B, C, and D weights are blank. The Automatic had a .8 ounce weight, in the late 188,000 range the 1.3 ounce weight automatic appeared. In the 202,000 range the Automatic with the hinge block and limit loop appeared. With Edison there is always an intermix. The Model B has the last Automatic weight with the new dome top. The Model B appeared in late 1901 or early 1902, it was called the Automatic at first and per Edison literature was found on all models except the Gem which had its own reproducer. The Model B to K share serial numbers, around 2.1 million were made before the fire, after the fire around 20,000 CHK reproducers were made. The regular production C joined in around 25,000 and from 25,000 to 33,000 the C has the blank weight. The C always had the notch for the centering pin. The Model C was the new top with the hanging weight which is more efficient.

Type 1 Model B from 1 to around 6900 has thin plating like the Automatic and no notch with the arm.
Type 2 Model B from around 6900 into the early 18,000 range has the thick plating and no notch with the arm.
Type 3 Model B from the 17,000 range to around 40,000 has the arm and the blank weight. Armed B's are seldom found above 40,000 but they exist.
Type 4 from around 40,000 to 105,000 has no arm with the weight stamped Model B, it was found on mostly on the Gem. The top does not say reproducer, it has the area for the arm, but no holes drilled for the arm.
Type 5 has the lead weight held on with screws, most of the weights are stamped Model B, the weight weighs 2 ounces. Some of these have arms. 105,000 to 150,000 is the serial number range.
Type 6 has the 2.2 ounce round cast lead weight nickel plated. Few have arms. This is the final version. I believe Edison kept making the B to use up the glass diaphragms, stylus bars, and ball styli. 150,000 to around 420,000 is the range of serial numbers. It takes a 2.2 ounce round weight to equal the 1.3 ounce hanging weight. I believe Edison got the idea of the hanging weight and dome top from Mobley who was doming the Automatic top and soldering a hanging weight on it. I think this is why there was so much improvement is so little time. Mobley continued to make modifications to the Model B and C, Edison declined to take him to court a second time because his modifications were local and with the C coming out it was not necessary.

Type 1 Model C blank weight with the arm. 25,000 to 33,000.
Type 2 Model C stamped weight with the arm. 32,000 to in the 70,000 range.
Type 3 Model C holes in the weight.
The armed C continued to be made into early 1907 so early machines with the clips could be upgraded.

The D joined in by 30,900.
The H by A290,000.
The K by A580,000 the first K weight is stamped Combination K.

NOTE: Most of my research is courtesy of eBay and collectors who share photos, Ron D, Al Sefl, Bill Boruff, and many others. The reproducer section of the Frow book is full of errors and omissions. Frow told Sefl no one would care about a comprehensive reproducer section and with around 10 exceptions Frow was correct.

Steve

Online
User avatar
FellowCollector
Victor IV
Posts: 1931
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by FellowCollector »

So, considering that this reproducer is serial number 3080 and per Steve's commentary this should be a model B reproducer with a blank weight? But it has the centering notch and a model C stylus bar. Or is this an early model C reproducer with blank weight that had its serial number stamped incorrectly? This is a bit confusing. :? Maybe I should re-read Steve's comments.

Doug

martinola
Victor III
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by martinola »

Don't know if it helps the confusion much, but it looks like there is a 5th digit that's mostly obliterated by the reflection.

Online
User avatar
FellowCollector
Victor IV
Posts: 1931
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by FellowCollector »

That's it, Martin. The second picture when zoomed does indeed show what appears to be a "5" as the 5th digit which would place this reproducer in the range of the first model C reproducers. Thanks for your input.

Doug

EdisonReproducers
Victor Jr
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 pm

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by EdisonReproducers »

The serial number is not 3080, it is 30804. If you look in the second photo you can see the 4, in the first photo the light covers the 4. Serial number 3080 would have the thin plating like the automatic with the machine marks showing. Edison did not change the B from the way he did the Automatic until the late 6000 series. I have circled the 4.
Attachments
Missing 4.PNG

EdisonReproducers
Victor Jr
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 pm

Re: Unmarked Model "C" Reproducer ?

Post by EdisonReproducers »

I was extremely happy to see that people are interested, thanks so very much. I got on today to save photos of the C reproducer. I have saved thousands of photos over the years. My research is complete except for the Model O reproducer. 5080 is the lowest Model O I have a photo of.

When I mention the errors and omissions in the Frow book reproducer section most people do not know Edison made the trowel weight N years before the N-56. The round weight was first.

From Eric:

The serial number on my Standard E is 800257. The Standard E listed is 800786. Only 529 apart and the same trowel N!!!!!! Edison must have made a small run of these.............. Only 3-4 weeks apart. Who would have imagined. Ebay is a great source of info!! From the owner of the two trowel N's.

1 The first N was the round weight; it came out around serial number 22,000. This had the pot metal flat top. The first one said Nat’l Phono around 25614 they have TAE Inc on them.

2. The second N was the trowel, not to be mistaken with the N-56. The trowel N does not have a pillar for the Amberola lift. This likely came out the same time as the trowel O around 42,000. These have the early dome top and the late dome top, I have seen them from 46,000 to 49,000.

Intermix, the flat top reappears in the 53,000 and 54,000 range and in the 55,000 range. In the early 60,000 and 61,000 range the early dome top reappears on the N. The early dome top has indented letters and poor pot metal, the late dome top has raised letters and some have thought it was brass as it remains in good condition.

3. Then come the bent weight N’s. I have observed the start around 46,000 and they normally have the good or last style of large top. The bent weight N has six varieties. The bent and trowel N overlap. Edison always has overlaps.

1. Extended H weight stamped Model N over H 4 Minute.
2. Extended H weight stamped Model N 4 Minute.
3. Extended H weight stamped Model-N in slightly larger letters
4 Extended H weight stamped N.
5. N weight stamped N
6. N weight stamped N with pin holding stylus bar in place. Some of the earlier weights have the pin also. Edison drilled the bar with a #71 drill bit and press fit the pin in the bar which was drilled with a #70.
The Frow book has four of these and does not mention the trowel weight N.


7. Then the N-56 which has three serial number varieties. First the regular O and N serial number, I have seen one in the 70,000 range. Then more commonly I have seen four in the R and S serial number range of 31,101 to 31,600. When the R and S were no longer made Edison used the tops stamped for the R and S to make N-56 reproducers as he never wasted and by June 1913 the R and S would have been obsolete.

Finally the A series, both the regular N and N-56 were made in the A series which got up to at least A350. I believe the A series were made before the fire as there was not any need for them after. I do know for certain that C, H and K’s were made in or after 1924 as I have seen them with cork gaskets which came out in 1924 per Ron D. They were likely sold until the end.
Attachments
N 47875 3.jpg
N 47875 3.jpg (41.75 KiB) Viewed 766 times
N 48907 Trowel b1.JPG
N 47875 1.jpg
N 47875 1.jpg (48.04 KiB) Viewed 766 times

Post Reply