cylinder recording motor

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andyive
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cylinder recording motor

Post by andyive »

I have what appears to be a cylinder recording experimental clockwork motor from John C Hoyer as mentioned in Graces catalogue. Can anyone throw any light on the provenance of this device. Anybody seen one, or got one? Photos attached
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gramophoneshane
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by gramophoneshane »

I certainly know nothing at all about this item, nor the catalogue you mention, but I am curious what is stamped into the two lower arms of the frame of the motor.
About all I can make out clearly is "US" in the middle of the right hand manufacturers mark.
To my untrained eye it looks more like a clock mechanism than anything phonograph related, except perhaps a Lioret phonograph.

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Menophanes
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by Menophanes »

I agree that this has very much the appearance of a movement from an American shelf clock of the 1890s (made perhaps by Jerome or New Haven or Seth Thomas), although it has certainly been modified for some other purpose and the pendulum assembly has been removed. It is hard to see why a phonograph motor should have two drive-trains (in a clock, one would have been for timekeeping and the other for sounding the hours and half-hours), or why it should have a central spindle (this would have carried the hands).

In the view of the movement itself, there seems to be some wording stamped on the left-hand upright, matching the legend 'MADE IN / U.S. / AMERICA' on the right. The view from the other side appears to show a number and two words stamped in the wood above the central hole. It would be interesting to know what these inscriptions say.

Oliver Mundy.

JerryVan
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by JerryVan »

I can't begin to imagine how that has anything to do with cylinder recording...

gramophoneshane
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by gramophoneshane »

Menophanes wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:26 am
In the view of the movement itself, there seems to be some wording stamped on the left-hand upright, matching the legend 'MADE IN / U.S. / AMERICA' on the right.

The view from the other side appears to show a number and two words stamped in the wood above the central hole. It would be interesting to know what these inscriptions say.

Oliver Mundy.
I believe you are right and the circular stamp says " made in US America".
As for the other side it's too unclear for me to read.
Normally on a clock mechanism you'd expect to find the clock manufacturers company name, the town and states name, and sometimes the country of origin and a patent date.
The small lever sticking out at the top of the motor and box looks like it leads to the escapement and possibly a hairspring, doing away with the need for a pendulum as you'd find on a normal mantle clock motor.

On the wood side, both outer circles have "wind" and a directional arrow inscribed in the brass, which I'm more used to seeing on alarm clocks, and the central circle appears to have "1 HOUR REV??" or perhaps PEV?? , and the same thing appears to be embossed in the wood a couple inches above this.

Like Jerry, I cant imagine how this could every be used in the cylinder recording process. I'm always happy to be proven wrong and educated though.
I'd also be interested in being educated about the John C Hoyer as mentioned in Graces catalogue that the OP mentioned.

In my mind though, I feel the presence of the 1 HOUR **** inscription on the brass and the wood are a pretty good indication this has nothing to do with cylinder recording and something to do with time keeping.
Possibly some sort of carriage clock?
Im sure if this has anything at all to do with sound recording or reproduction, George and Rene will know.
What are the approximate dimensions of the case?

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Andersun
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by Andersun »

I believe 1 Hour REVLN = 1 hour revolution.

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Curt A
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by Curt A »

Here is where the OP apparently got this idea...
John C. Hoyer
of St. Mary's Works, Eldon Road, Wood Green, London, N
1899 Company established.

Manufacturers of scientific instruments including Dr. A. D. Waller's physiological instruments, digital sphygmographs, photographing boxes, lantern railways, myographs, chloroform apparatus etc., Lippmann's capillary electrometers etc., slow and fast clock-driven cylinders for recording, electric signal time clocks, Dr. W. L. Symes' embedding baths and apparatus, all-metal gas regulators, clinical and surgical instruments, engineers' small tools, gas and electric heated soldering irons, "Always Accurate" pocket spring balance for nurses, fishermen, jewellers etc.

However, in my mind, the reference to "clock-driven cylinders for recording" does not necessarily refer to a literal works from a clock. All wind up phonographs, toys, etc. are clockwork or clock-driven, so this reference is not specific and since there are no pictures or diagrams of an actual device, it means nothing. You can't get to John C. Hoyer by blindly jumping from a clock type mechanism in a box, found randomly somewhere and assume it's some type of cylinder recording device, especially since there is no obvious sign of anything related to phonographs or recordings.

The most logical use for this contraption is a timer for a home made explosive device... :? ;) :lol:

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/John_C._Hoyer
Screen Shot 2021-06-18 at 10.26.47 AM.png
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
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"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
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gramophoneshane
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by gramophoneshane »

Boom! lol
Hopefully you get the chloroform before she blows.

I imagine the OP got the name of John C Hoyer from the bottom left arm of the mechanism, but it'd be interesting to know what else is written there.
I guess the two levers pertruding from the top of the cabinet must regulate the slow and fast part of the description in the ad.
Looking at the other items advertised, I wonder if cylinders for recording might refer to those paper covered drums you see in movies with a needle that draws a line for things like earth quakes, lie detectors and stuff. I think Eliza Doolittle uses one in my fair lady.
There were so many weird and wonderful contraptions being built in the Victorian and Edwardian era, many of which did nothing they claimed to do, so for all we know it could be for recording dreams lol.
Whatever it is, I don't think it's for sound recording, but it's certainly interesting, old, and I'd imagine quite rare, so definitely worth identifying and hopefully restoring.

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Curt A
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by Curt A »

gramophoneshane wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:53 pm I imagine the OP got the name of John C Hoyer from the bottom left arm of the mechanism, but it'd be interesting to know what else is written there.
Shane, I didn't get John C Hoyer from the bottom left arm, but I thought I could see "Conn" on the last line. So, after some research on Connecticut clock makers, I came up with Waterbury Clock Co. based on the distinctive shape of the movement and its framework. I found a picture of a Waterbury movement which appears to match the movement in the OP's box. I made a composite picture comparing the two and I believe that they match.

So now the question is: "What is the boxed clockwork for?" Maybe, a traveling clock of some kind...? :? :roll:
Comparison.png
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

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Curt A
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Re: cylinder recording motor

Post by Curt A »

I found a period square Waterbury clock face, so adding it to the original picture of the box, gives an idea of what this would look like as a traveling clock... Who knows?
Box Comparison.png
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

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