Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

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Jonsheff
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Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by Jonsheff »

I rebuilt a 1911 Victrola VV- X motor and cant seem to get it to run smooth. There is noise where the small brass gear meets the governor worm gear and it periodically clicks. Inspection doesnt show excessive wear on any of the gears and the alignment seems good. Is there a trick to aligning those gears? Or is this just a noisy motor by design? It looks to be a very early motor design i think might have been used on the Victor 1 thru 5. I think the next motor model after this one had the tilted govorner, perhaps to correct this problem. I have the VV-X fully restored but cant sell until i get this problem sorted out. I have always been able to get the motors running like new but this one is a problem child. I really dont like working on the old motors, a real kill joy.
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JeffR1
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by JeffR1 »

Even though I haven't been here that long I can make some suggestions, I'm sure others will too and may even tell me I'm wrong.
The needle bearing cups should have sewing machine oil on them, not grease AFAIK, the one with the green arrow should be machined "round" at the bottom to take the load of the governor, it can be mixed up, be sure they are correct.
Carefully check for wear or a malformed teeth on the brass gear that drives the governor, it is permissible to flip it over to use the unworn edge.
Make sure that the fixed end of the governor is not too close to the drive gear that it may just be catching on it, make sure that the set screw that holds it in place is snugged up enough.
The same goes for the 6 screws that hold the flex springs in place _ check the 3 screws on the weights.
If the governor springs are not straight, or if not worn evenly into the same arc, replace them.
Inspect for very small cracks in the three springs.
Sometimes the 6 governor spring screws will snug up before they are holding the leaf springs secure, check for that, the threads can be dirty and keep them from going all the way home, but be careful here not to over-tighten them and strip the threads or break the heads off.
I've even gone so far as to weigh the weights on a jewelers scale to balance things, this helps a great deal.

I believe the motor should be tested not upside down and don't allow the governor to run too fast and over-extend the weight leaf springs, slow it down to 78 rpm.
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Inigo
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by Inigo »

If reversing the brass drive gear, be careful, for sometimes it doesn't work. The other side of that great has the set screw collar with a protruding screw; when installed upside down, that collar and its screw can hit the bull gear and the motor gets jammed, and the gear damaged.
In the current position of the drive gear (the right one), check if there is enough end play when pulling the spindle up to the turntable. There must be. Actually the set screw collar guess against the upper motor casting, and is not polished, do if it has been assembled tight, this can stop the motor.
These motors are a nightmare to adjust.
Another thing you can try it's to loosen the gear and adjust it in a different position, slightly up or down the spindle.
The governor bushing that receives the push (the one with the green arrow) may have a small ball bearing inside; if it doesn't work well, try installing one small ball.
Another trick is to move the governor slightly on its axis, installing the thrust bearing in a different position. Later motors had a groove in the bearing to set it in a fix position, but earlier motors don't.
Be patient and eventually you'll get it. It is important to check the motor in the right upwards position, as the gaps here and there don't work the same upside down.
Another trick is to listen carefully at the noises and try to determine by the period which gear is making the noise...
And how is the noise? Sometimes these motors are noisy when working free, but silent when they feel the drag of the needle (when playing a record, under load).
Ah! And check that the ball bearing is installed at the bottom cup bearing that receives the weight of the spindle!
Inigo

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JerryVan
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by JerryVan »

JeffR1 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:49 am ... the one with the green arrow should be machined "round" at the bottom to take the load of the governor, it can be mixed up, be sure they are correct.


Carefully check for wear or a malformed teeth on the brass gear that drives the governor, it is permissible to flip it over to use the unworn edge.
The bottom of the hole is not machined round. There's a ball bearing pressed in there. But, your advice is still valid.

As to flipping the gear over... yes, in theory. However, as pointed out above, the hub of the gear and the setscrew will likely interfere with the large bull gear that drives the spindle. Though perhaps not true for all varitions of Victor motors. (I believe the motors where this arrangement would work, have the brass gear with a large chamfer on the hub which allows the needed clearance.)
Last edited by JerryVan on Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JerryVan
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by JerryVan »

Jonsheff wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:38 pm I rebuilt a 1911 Victrola VV- X motor and cant seem to get it to run smooth. There is noise where the small brass gear meets the governor worm gear and it periodically clicks. Inspection doesnt show excessive wear on any of the gears and the alignment seems good. Is there a trick to aligning those gears? Or is this just a noisy motor by design? It looks to be a very early motor design i think might have been used on the Victor 1 thru 5. I think the next motor model after this one had the tilted govorner, perhaps to correct this problem. I have the VV-X fully restored but cant sell until i get this problem sorted out. I have always been able to get the motors running like new but this one is a problem child. I really dont like working on the old motors, a real kill joy.

20211024_125846.jpg

20211024_125839.jpg
Jon,

While some adjustment can make things better, these types of motors with the course, square toothed gears are by their nature somewhat noisy. Check for tiny burrs on the brass gear teeth that can cause the clicking that you hear. Other than that, try making small changes in gear mounting & governor bearing locations, as other have described above, in order to find the "sweet spot" where things work best. Sometimes, a worn governor bearing, coupled with an out-of-balance governor, can also cause a rattle.

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Jonsheff
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by Jonsheff »

Finally got the motor to run right. Its noisy but i think thats normal for this motor. After winding and running down 5-6 times and adding a little extra oil to a few spots, it runs fine now. https://youtu.be/h5kWR9y61XA

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Jwb88
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by Jwb88 »

I'm curious: did you polish the finish off the brass reproducer back on purpose?

JeffR1
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Re: Need advice on 1911 early Victor motor

Post by JeffR1 »

What JWB asks, and did you do the finish on the cabinet, it look's professionally done, the grain has been filled properly and the satin sheen is very even with no flaws ?
It takes a clean spray booth to get it like that or a lot of wet sanding and polishing, not an easy feat.
I'm impressed !

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