Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

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gunnarthefeisty
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by gunnarthefeisty »

that sure does look nice. If I end up refinishing my Silvertone I'll be sure to use your method.

Herderz
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Herderz »

I started on the motor next, waiting on parts for the reproducer.
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It is a little different from the VV VI that I have done earlier. It is a 2 spring motor but only has 1 drum. It has been worked on before at some point but still had the dried up mess to deal with. I broke it down slowly documenting how it works and interacts with each gear train. I will start with the spring drive. Two large springs in one drum winding in opposite directions. I scribed arrows at the drum mounting pins which direction they wind before disassembly. I pulled the springs and cleaned each part of the assembly. The first observation was that the upper spring had broken at some point and somebody had repaired the drum mounting end of the spring. Not the prettiest repair but it got the machine running to this point. I will be redoing this spring because it is only a matter of time before it fails again.
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If a spring breaks at the end it is very easy to repair this without replacing the spring as long as the spring has plenty of life left in it. I evaluated the springs to be at about 70% force based on the free wind on the spring compared to the drum size. Clear as mud right! Well here is how I do it. Mount the spring in a vise and get out a heating source, here I used a propane torch. You have to heat the end of the spring to red and then get it air cool to anneal the end of the spring. About 3 inch's from the end of the new end that you will be making.
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I was not able to take a pic of when it was red fast enough but here it is cooling down.
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After cool to the touch I used the good spring to make my templet for the new end. You can see the temper line about 3 inch's below the new hole.
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I used the good spring to determine what drills I would need to make the new mounting hole. 2 bits were required to match the hole. The upper hole took a larger drill and the two lower holes at a smaller radius took a smaller drill.
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Cut the remaining material out, I used a small cutting wheel on a dermal tool. Be sure to file all edges smooth because any jagged edge could cause a crack and spring failure. Cut the round tongue on a radius as shown, this helps with the spring install back into the drum.
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I cleaned and inspected each part of the drum assemble and besides normal wear to the drive gears for the worm shafts I will be ready to assemble the spring drums.
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Inigo
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Inigo »

Looks fantastic! I enjoy as if I was doing it myself... except that I don't have any of your super-abilities! :D
Inigo

Herderz
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Herderz »

Thanks guys, I loaded the drum with both springs.
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I dressed the spring drive gear to remove the burrs from years of wear using a fine lap stone in the direction that the worm forms the burr until I have a clean crisp face. Never lap a burr in the opposite direction that it is formed because it can chip the edge or form a small burr in the opposite direction. I also lapped the drive gear to the governor worm the same way. This reduces the chance of gear chatter after assembly.
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I started the motor assemble process at the main spindle shaft oiling the bottom bearing and the top bore were the shaft goes through the motor plate. After giving it a spin or two and it turns freely I install the governor shaft oiling both bearing ends. Then I slowly turn the main shaft to see how the gears mesh and that there is no binding on any tooth. There is no mesh depth adjustment on this motor and the drive gear height is set by a pin ended set screw and divet hole in the spindle shaft. It turns smoothly so then I grease the gear and the worm.
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Next I install the winding shaft and the ratchet and grease them up. There is some wear on the shaft but nothing I can do about it and the slop will not keep me from being able to wind it up.
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Next I install the spring drum assembly and check the gear mesh on every tooth for clearance. There is no adjustment for mesh depth here also. Then I grease the gears up.
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The last part is the RPM indicator for the gage. It was frozen up so I disassembled it and cleaned and polished shafts. You have to be very carful with the hair spring not bend or kink it. I have worked with these type springs on clocks in the past and have screwed one or two up before I learned how to handle them.
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Reassembling the part and making sure the shafts move freely you then have to set the spring tension and pad lever so the spring returns the lever back to the starting point. This took a couple tries to get the tension on the spring right. The lever moves the indicator on the motor board top from slow to fast to slow again when the turntable is stopped.
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I installed the part and made sure it was functioning correctly.
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I mounted the motor to the motor board then the speed regulator and speed indicator. I wound the motor up and it sounded very smooth. I set the speed at 78 rpm's using a paper strobe then adjusted the needle on the indicator to 78.
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I installed the brake and the remaining hardware. I think it looks nice and to my liking.
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I cleaned the turntable up and installed new felt. I wound her up several times and let her spin. The speed indicator works beautifully as I speed up and slow down the motor. All I lack now is the tonearm and reproducer. I am waiting on parts to come to rebuild them.
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JerryVan
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by JerryVan »

Beautiful work, as usual!

This is a heavily worn gear. If you experience speed variations while playing a record, then look to this gear as the possible culprit. The wear area creates a "ramp" or "pocket" that the tooth of the worm gear can bind on if any runout in either gear is present. However, if it works well... no problem :D
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Herderz
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Herderz »

Thanks Jerry, I realize that there is heavy wear but what are the options? I can not get a new gear as far as I know. With this gear the best I can do is dress the gear to knock off the exit burrs. It does chatter a bit but finding a used gear probably would not be any better. Reversing the gear has it's problems too. being stacked to the hub it would have to be released from the hub and re-stack. There are also burrs on the back side that would be have to relieved on each tooth. Anybody out there have another option? Please let me know.

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Inigo
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Inigo »

I don't know... It's a pretty common gear, so the chances of finding a replacement in better shape are not deniable... You could always ask for a detailed photo of the teeth to judge... AFAIK, the hmv and Victor versions are equal and interchangeable, and also with the bigger 4-spring motor no 34. So there are lots of them out there...
Inigo

Herderz
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by Herderz »

Thanks guys, I have wound it up many times if not to break it in with being cleaned cleaned and polished. Based on the sound and revelations I think the chatter is in the drive gear to the governor worm shaft. So what do I know. I got the tonearm parts today. I am moving on to it. New bearing balls for the tone arm, new springs for the needle shaft "one was broken" new spring mounting screws, new spring adjusting screws, new back plate screws, new gaskets for the mica witch is in perfect shape. I put this together and put a disk on the machine maybe the sweet sound will overcome the gear chatter. We will see. If your car is making a sound that you cannot figure out just turn up the radio!

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dzavracky
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by dzavracky »

Herderz wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:21 pm If your car is making a sound that you cannot figure out just turn up the radio!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I would imagine that the music from the machine will be louder than the gear noise. I've had a few noisy machines, and the music generally overcomes the noise from the motor. Looking forward to seeing the final stage of the project.

David

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VanEpsFan1914
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Re: Victor Talking Machine VV IX and info on the restoration

Post by VanEpsFan1914 »

You'll almost certainly be able to find a good used gear that's a little quieter--and I've noticed most Victor motors run a little quieter under load anyway.

It's a great restoration of an excellent small machine, lots of fun to watch!

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