Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

[pughphonos]

Mindy, your modification of your Schubert motor board is not the first time that was done. As I described above, the dealer back in 1927 must have done the same thing you did with my Beethoven, as it has a speed control on top. I'm sure Fran would say that your Schubert and my Beethoven are the only ones in the inventory like that.

Thanks, Mark!

[pughphonos]

SCHUBERT FOR SALE ON E-BAY (LAUREL, MARYLAND) BY katoski77 FOR $2100

Model: Schubert Edisonic
Serial number: 4262

Not a bad looking machine, and nearer the end of production than most. Has an Edisonic reproducer on it. Looks all original. A bit pricey, but you can make an offer and see what goes.

[pg1876]

...

I don't have any proof that any Edisonics left the factory with L-P capabilities, but let me explain my thoughts:

The dataplate for the Beethoven is designated as "BN", which is a pretty understandable abbreviation, but the Schubert is not a straightforward abbreviation at all. It's "CLT", which in my opinion was an abbreviation for "Consolette", as I've opined in the past. We know that George Frow stated the Consolette was a Long Playing machine that went into very limited production, but apparently none (that we have identified) has survived. I know it's pure conjecture on my part, but I can't help to think that what we know as the Schubert was initially produced with L-P gearing as the Consolette, which means it would've had the L-P function installed at the factory. This possibility, coupled with our knowledge that "Edison" never let anything go to waste, has me questioning why - with the transition from Long Playing Consoles into the Edisonics - would such an out of character change happen, which didn't use up at least some old L-P parts?

It doesn't make sense to me that that would happen. But I probably wouldn't make much sense to the Old Man, either.

I hope someday the mystery will be solved conclusively, and that I live long enough to read of the discovery either way round.

Cheers,
Fran

Interesting idea, but I see one fly in the proverbial hat: the Schuberts were single-spring machines. If the company was going to put LP gearing into an Edisonic, presumably it would have chosen one with a two-spring motor, as a single-spring motor wouldn't have enough run time to play at least the 12" LP discs, maybe not the 10" either. That would make the Beethoven, not the Schubert, the logical candidate.

Very little apparently is known about the "Consolette," including the design of its cabinet. I can think of two other possibilities, both pure speculation:

1) The Schubert's cabinet was originally intended to be that of the LP Consolette, and a quantity with "CLT" data plates affixed were already in hand awaiting completion when the LP records proved a commercial dud. In the spirit of never letting good parts go to waste, Edison repurposed them by putting in the standard play single-spring works we all know and love, possibly, again on the "waste not, want not" principle, left-overs from the London series. Having started with "CLT" plates, the company soldiered on with that designation, after all purely for internal consumption, to the end of the line. This option is akin to what you laid out above but without the incorporation of LP gearing into the Schuberts.

2) The company already had a big stock of plates stamped "CLT" on hand when it scrubbed the Consolette and simply repurposed them as Schubert plates, transferring "CLT" to the Schubert line, to be affixed to an entirely new cabinet design housing the aforementioned standard play single-spring works we all know and love.

I wish we knew more about that LP Consolette. Has anyone actually ever seen one?

I favor possibility no. 1. I think the CLT was the fifth LP machine, or was intended to be the fifth LP machine, and was going to get two springs, not one. You can even see the close family resemblance of the LP turned legs and stretchers with the Edisonics. I've seen Schuberts with two springs, and I think Ms. Pugh's Schubert has two springs and an LP mechanism if I remember correctly. Although these Schuberts got the second spring installed in modern times. I've also seen one Schubert with "The New Edison" decal like the LP machines had. But I think your speculation may be correct that no LP consolettes were produced because the cabinets were ordered when LP records were still a going concern, and by the time they were going to get the motors installed, the plan for them had changed. And there is also the possibility that a few LP consolettes were produced, and none have surfaced.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to what Fran, drh, and marcapra have begun and pick up where they left off:

I agree in the strong likelihood of possibility no. 1, that the Schubert cabinet was initially intended to be the cabinet of fifth LP machine, the Consolette (setting aside for the moment the discussion of 1 vs 2 spring motors and LP gearing). As marcapa rightly noted, the Schubert's turned legs and stretchers indicate a family resemblance to the LP line -- and I believe the resemblance is even stronger than that.

In addition to the turned legs and stretchers, the Schuberts base cabinet trim is identical to base trim on the entire LP line. Moreover, and to me the most noteworthy of all, the Schubert has banding on the inside of the lid (to contain sound), an innovation unique to the LP line.

Now take a moment to consider the Schubert against the Beethoven, technically in the same family. The Beethoven has neither the iconic base trim of the Schubert nor, notably, the inner lid banding. Even to give the benefit of the doubt, the trim can be considered an aesthetic piece. But the banding is driven by function - so it does not follow to have it on one Edisonic unit and not the other if they had been truly designed together.

Taken together, the Schubert's designation as the CLT, the very striking cabinet similarities to the LP line, and talk of an early Schubert with "The New Edison" decal make an overwhelmingly strong argument that the Schubert's cabinet is what would have been the Consolette. Hopefully a true LP Consolette will emerge from a barn to give us some definitive satisfaction on the subject.

I do find it interesting that Frow suggests the Consolette was/would have been marketed for a cool $250, whereas the Schubert retailed for $135 and the Beethoven for $225 at that...

[fran604g]

...

I don't have any proof that any Edisonics left the factory with L-P capabilities, but let me explain my thoughts:

The dataplate for the Beethoven is designated as "BN", which is a pretty understandable abbreviation, but the Schubert is not a straightforward abbreviation at all. It's "CLT", which in my opinion was an abbreviation for "Consolette", as I've opined in the past. We know that George Frow stated the Consolette was a Long Playing machine that went into very limited production, but apparently none (that we have identified) has survived. I know it's pure conjecture on my part, but I can't help to think that what we know as the Schubert was initially produced with L-P gearing as the Consolette, which means it would've had the L-P function installed at the factory. This possibility, coupled with our knowledge that "Edison" never let anything go to waste, has me questioning why - with the transition from Long Playing Consoles into the Edisonics - would such an out of character change happen, which didn't use up at least some old L-P parts?

It doesn't make sense to me that that would happen. But I probably wouldn't make much sense to the Old Man, either.

I hope someday the mystery will be solved conclusively, and that I live long enough to read of the discovery either way round.

Cheers,
Fran

Interesting idea, but I see one fly in the proverbial hat: the Schuberts were single-spring machines. If the company was going to put LP gearing into an Edisonic, presumably it would have chosen one with a two-spring motor, as a single-spring motor wouldn't have enough run time to play at least the 12" LP discs, maybe not the 10" either. That would make the Beethoven, not the Schubert, the logical candidate.

Very little apparently is known about the "Consolette," including the design of its cabinet. I can think of two other possibilities, both pure speculation:

1) The Schubert's cabinet was originally intended to be that of the LP Consolette, and a quantity with "CLT" data plates affixed were already in hand awaiting completion when the LP records proved a commercial dud. In the spirit of never letting good parts go to waste, Edison repurposed them by putting in the standard play single-spring works we all know and love, possibly, again on the "waste not, want not" principle, left-overs from the London series. Having started with "CLT" plates, the company soldiered on with that designation, after all purely for internal consumption, to the end of the line. This option is akin to what you laid out above but without the incorporation of LP gearing into the Schuberts.

2) The company already had a big stock of plates stamped "CLT" on hand when it scrubbed the Consolette and simply repurposed them as Schubert plates, transferring "CLT" to the Schubert line, to be affixed to an entirely new cabinet design housing the aforementioned standard play single-spring works we all know and love.

I wish we knew more about that LP Consolette. Has anyone actually ever seen one?

I favor possibility no. 1. I think the CLT was the fifth LP machine, or was intended to be the fifth LP machine, and was going to get two springs, not one. You can even see the close family resemblance of the LP turned legs and stretchers with the Edisonics. I've seen Schuberts with two springs, and I think Ms. Pugh's Schubert has two springs and an LP mechanism if I remember correctly. Although these Schuberts got the second spring installed in modern times. I've also seen one Schubert with "The New Edison" decal like the LP machines had. But I think your speculation may be correct that no LP consolettes were produced because the cabinets were ordered when LP records were still a going concern, and by the time they were going to get the motors installed, the plan for them had changed. And there is also the possibility that a few LP consolettes were produced, and none have surfaced.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents to what Fran, drh, and marcapra have begun and pick up where they left off:

I agree in the strong likelihood of possibility no. 1, that the Schubert cabinet was initially intended to be the cabinet of fifth LP machine, the Consolette (setting aside for the moment the discussion of 1 vs 2 spring motors and LP gearing). As marcapa rightly noted, the Schubert's turned legs and stretchers indicate a family resemblance to the LP line -- and I believe the resemblance is even stronger than that.

In addition to the turned legs and stretchers, the Schuberts base cabinet trim is identical to base trim on the entire LP line. Moreover, and to me the most noteworthy of all, the Schubert has banding on the inside of the lid (to contain sound), an innovation unique to the LP line.

Now take a moment to consider the Schubert against the Beethoven, technically in the same family. The Beethoven has neither the iconic base trim of the Schubert nor, notably, the inner lid banding. Even to give the benefit of the doubt, the trim can be considered an aesthetic piece. But the banding is driven by function - so it does not follow to have it on one Edisonic unit and not the other if they had been truly designed together.

Taken together, the Schubert's designation as the CLT, the very striking cabinet similarities to the LP line, and talk of an early Schubert with "The New Edison" decal make an overwhelmingly strong argument that the Schubert's cabinet is what would have been the Consolette. Hopefully a true LP Consolette will emerge from a barn to give us some definitive satisfaction on the subject.

I do find it interesting that Frow suggests the Consolette was/would have been marketed for a cool $250, whereas the Schubert retailed for $135 and the Beethoven for $225 at that...

The argument for the (CLT) Schubert being the "lost" L-P "Consolette" truly is compelling, thank you for your astute observations. I had initially considered the finer points of cabinet design in my working theory, and those observations bring more evidence to my personal belief the Schubert began life as an L-P Phonograph. As for pricing, I think that by 1926 Charles was very aware of the "writing on the wall" and there are accounts that he perceived the Edison Phonograph Division as being in dire straights. He toured extensively that year with Walsh exhibiting the L-P Phonograph, but he surely realized it was too little, too late. He must have also realized (as did his competitors) that with the sales of acoustic phonographs plummeting (and for himself personally with the failure of the L-P system) it was the time to sell as much as possible, any way possible - high prices being paid for these quickly-becoming (already became) obsolete machines wouldn't have been remotely realistic. Within another year the Edison Co. surely realized their demise was a distinct possibility, maybe even a strong probability. This would also explain the use of the L-P/CLT cabinet for the cheaper Schubert model, as opposed to a "better" redesign as the Beethoven surely exhibits. To me, the 1 v. 2 springs feature really isn't an impediment to the theory. Additional springs were supplied with the factory "kit" to convert existing phonos to the L-P system. Adding or eliminating a 2nd spring was no big deal, really.

Just my $.02, and I stand by my conjecture until proved otherwise.

Another of these early Schuberts with "The New Edison Phonograph" decals recently surfaced on the APS Facebook group (#1009), and I have invited the new owner to participate in our research here at the TMF.

It would be fascinating if an unmolested 2-spring Schubert, with the earlier "The New Edison Phonograph" decal and indications of the L-P gearing having been installed at one time, surfaces someday with unassailable provenance.

Best,
Fran

[pg1876]

Fran - Your thoughts on retail value make a good deal of sense. And after revisiting Frow today, they line right up.

That Facebook APS Schubert ought to be telling indeed if the serial number is 1009! Looks to be in good condition in the video; wish the owner had included a wider shot so that we could see if LP gearing was present.

I do hope he takes up your invite and joins the TMF and shares this one with us!

Peter

[pughphonos]

RECENTLY SOLD SCHUBERT (IN OR NEAR LARGO, FLORIDA) FOR $150; INFO PROVIDED BY PETER (pg1876)

Model: Schubert Edisonic
Serial number: 3109

Peter (pg1876) recently provided me with the following message and photos. Kinda funky to see a painted Schubert, but hopefully things are all fine under the coat. Thanks, Peter!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have long enjoyed reading the Edisonic thread you have created, and look forward to posting to it directly soon.

However, I wanted to provide you with photos of a Schubert I found for sale in October 2020, so that you may record and disseminate as you so choose, following Fran and others' precedent

Apart from the knowledge captured in the photos, including the clip if the listing showing that the machine resided in or about Largo, Florida, I can only additionally share that upon contacting the seller, I was told that it had just sold for $150.

A shame that what seems to be an otherwise well preserved Schubert was painted.

[chewy]

Model: Schubert Edisonic (inside cabinet says: The New Edison)
Serial number: 1009
Reproducer serial number: F 5159 9N S (dance repro w/ Edsonic hardware)
When purchased: Cinco de Mayo '21
From whom purchased: Private Sale/Seattle, WA (via San Mateo, CA)
Cabinet condition when purchased: Missing left cabinet knob, otherwise great

[drh]

...A shame that what seems to be an otherwise well preserved Schubert was painted.

Not just painted--antiqued. This is the second instance of a machine afflicted with "antiquing" I've seen in forum posts this month; I do hope that hideous practice, which I thought had been left for dead by the mid-'70s, isn't making a comeback!

[edit] Although now that I look at it again, it starts to smell (I use the term advisedly) a bit more like "shabby chic" than quintessential '60s "antiqued." Either way, well, yuck.

[gramophone-georg]

...A shame that what seems to be an otherwise well preserved Schubert was painted.

Not just painted--antiqued. This is the second instance of a machine afflicted with "antiquing" I've seen in forum posts this month; I do hope that hideous practice, which I thought had been left for dead by the mid-'70s, isn't making a comeback!

[edit] Although now that I look at it again, it starts to smell (I use the term advisedly) a bit more like "shabby chic" than quintessential '60s "antiqued." Either way, well, yuck.

Never quite could get my head around why anyone would think antiquing an antique is a good idea. It's sort of like adding bacon grease to your butter 'cos there just ain't enough fat in fat.

[fran604g]

Model: Schubert Edisonic (inside cabinet says: The New Edison)
Serial number: 1009
Reproducer serial number: F 5159 9N S (dance repro w/ Edsonic hardware)
When purchased: Cinco de Mayo '21
From whom purchased: Private Sale/Seattle, WA (via San Mateo, CA)
Cabinet condition when purchased: Missing left cabinet knob, otherwise great

Welcome to our forum, chewy! It's good to have you. Spend some time looking around there's a wealth of information here.

Cheers,
Fran