Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

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pughphonos
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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by pughphonos »

marcapra wrote:Thanks Ms. Pugh! Now I can see that my Beethoven ser. no. 1200 did come with a rep. holder and I have it. I just had to buy it separately from John.
Hey Mark,

That's right, you've owned this baby (BN 1200) since 2015; hard for me to keep the current owners all straight.
: ) Very, very cool.
Last edited by pughphonos on Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by pughphonos »

Mvogel6161 wrote:Recently acquired Beethoven.
Oh my goodness!! The Beethovens have really been coming out of the woods these past few years. What a handsome example. I see you're a new member here and it's going to be great to see what else you have--even if they're not Edisonics. :P

Thank you for posting such nice photos.
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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by drh »

fran604g wrote:...

I don't have any proof that any Edisonics left the factory with L-P capabilities, but let me explain my thoughts:

The dataplate for the Beethoven is designated as "BN", which is a pretty understandable abbreviation, but the Schubert is not a straightforward abbreviation at all. It's "CLT", which in my opinion was an abbreviation for "Consolette", as I've opined in the past. We know that George Frow stated the Consolette was a Long Playing machine that went into very limited production, but apparently none (that we have identified) has survived. I know it's pure conjecture on my part, but I can't help to think that what we know as the Schubert was initially produced with L-P gearing as the Consolette, which means it would've had the L-P function installed at the factory. This possibility, coupled with our knowledge that "Edison" never let anything go to waste, has me questioning why - with the transition from Long Playing Consoles into the Edisonics - would such an out of character change happen, which didn't use up at least some old L-P parts?

It doesn't make sense to me that that would happen. But I probably wouldn't make much sense to the Old Man, either. ;)

I hope someday the mystery will be solved conclusively, and that I live long enough to read of the discovery either way round.

Cheers,
Fran
Interesting idea, but I see one fly in the proverbial hat: the Schuberts were single-spring machines. If the company was going to put LP gearing into an Edisonic, presumably it would have chosen one with a two-spring motor, as a single-spring motor wouldn't have enough run time to play at least the 12" LP discs, maybe not the 10" either. That would make the Beethoven, not the Schubert, the logical candidate.

Very little apparently is known about the "Consolette," including the design of its cabinet. I can think of two other possibilities, both pure speculation:

1) The Schubert's cabinet was originally intended to be that of the LP Consolette, and a quantity with "CLT" data plates affixed were already in hand awaiting completion when the LP records proved a commercial dud. In the spirit of never letting good parts go to waste, Edison repurposed them by putting in the standard play single-spring works we all know and love, possibly, again on the "waste not, want not" principle, left-overs from the London series. Having started with "CLT" plates, the company soldiered on with that designation, after all purely for internal consumption, to the end of the line. This option is akin to what you laid out above but without the incorporation of LP gearing into the Schuberts.

2) The company already had a big stock of plates stamped "CLT" on hand when it scrubbed the Consolette and simply repurposed them as Schubert plates, transferring "CLT" to the Schubert line, to be affixed to an entirely new cabinet design housing the aforementioned standard play single-spring works we all know and love.

I wish we knew more about that LP Consolette. Has anyone actually ever seen one?

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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by marcapra »

I favor possibility no. 1. I think the CLT was the fifth LP machine, or was intended to be the fifth LP machine, and was going to get two springs, not one. You can even see the close family resemblance of the LP turned legs and stretchers with the Edisonics. I've seen Schuberts with two springs, and I think Ms. Pugh's Schubert has two springs and an LP mechanism if I remember correctly. Although these Schuberts got the second spring installed in modern times. I've also seen one Schubert with "The New Edison" decal like the LP machines had. But I think your speculation may be correct that no LP consolettes were produced because the cabinets were ordered when LP records were still a going concern, and by the time they were going to get the motors installed, the plan for them had changed. And there is also the possibility that a few LP consolettes were produced, and none have surfaced.

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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by pughphonos »

marcapra wrote:I've seen Schuberts with two springs, and I think Ms. Pugh's Schubert has two springs and an LP mechanism if I remember correctly.
Hi Mark, you do remember correctly. They weren't installed in the factory, however, but rather by me (I was up front about it when I gave Fran the information on my Schubert #3621 a few years ago). The LP gearing I bought from George Vollema, who took it from an LP machine he had in storage. The double spring I have (plus the speed control) is the result of transferring a motor board from a Chippendale I had.

My reasoning is that not all phonographs have to be museum pieces with everything kept in original configuration. They were built for easy servicing and upgrades -- it's just that my upgrades occurred in the 2010s, not the 1920s.

My saving grace is that, again, I let Fran know of all the alterations and he's noted them; they're also recorded on this string AND on a document (sealed in plastic) I've placed under the horn. So, my machine is not all-original and therefore of no use to this particular discussion. But please carry on!

Mindy
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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by phonogfp »

Mindy, your respect for historical documentation is laudable. If only all collectors were as mindful and as thorough! Good on you - -

George P.

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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by fran604g »

phonogfp wrote:Mindy, your respect for historical documentation is laudable. If only all collectors were as mindful and as thorough! Good on you - -

George P.
^^^ what George said! Your attention to detail is appreciated.

Cheers,
Fran
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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by pughphonos »

Thank you, George and Fran. I'm an archivist in my full-time job and am very aware of the need to preserve provenance. The countervailing forces in my life are love of music, fidelity, restoration, re-creation, so my upgraded Schubert has been a vehicle for those!

Just for the sake of a story, since you guys are attending to this string. I bought that Chippendale in 2006 from an antique store in Indianapolis, back when our car was a 1989 Chevy Caprice. My brother commented when I bought the Caprice (also 2006) that the old Caprices were sturdy cars and that "half of the taxis in Detroit are Caprices." Anyway, its trunk was so deep and broad that (with the help of guys at the store) that Chippendale FIT in the Caprice's trunk (side to side)!

After awhile I didn't care for how that Chippendale completely dominated our living room. But I did love its double spring and speed control, so when I switched to a Schubert its motor board made the switch too. Of course I kept its details on file and provided them to Fran a few years later when he created his C-250/C-19 inventory.

Of course the Chippendale got the other motor board with the single spring and lack of speed control. Ron Haring is the major antique phono dealer around these parts. When I approached him about taking the Chippendale I was honest with him (for ethical reasons, plus that dude has a sharp eye). He's also a very, very tough businessman and I got very little for that modified machine. Again, Fran has the details for that one too: C-250, serial no. SM 33500.

My first DD machine was a cute A-100, which left my hands without any modifications (replaced by the Chippendale).

Well, enough memory lane for now.

M
"You must serve music, because music is so enormous and can envelop you into such a state of perpetual anxiety and torture--but it is our first and main duty"
-- Maria Callas, 1968 interview.

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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by pughphonos »

pughphonos wrote:Thank you, George and Fran. I'm an archivist in my full-time job and am very aware of the need to preserve provenance. The countervailing forces in my life are love of music, fidelity, restoration, re-creation, so my upgraded Schubert has been a vehicle for those!

Just for the sake of a story, since you guys are attending to this string. I bought that Chippendale in 2006 from an antique store in Indianapolis, back when our car was a 1989 Chevy Caprice. My brother commented when I bought the Caprice (also 2006) that the old Caprices were sturdy cars and that "half of the taxis in Detroit are Caprices." Anyway, its trunk was so deep and broad that (with the help of guys at the store) the Chippendale FIT in its trunk, one end anchored near one wheel well and the other end against the other wheel well. Who needs a truck when you have a car like that!

After awhile I didn't care for how the Chippendale completely dominated our living room: a Chippendale is either a super cool and engaging piece of design, OR butt ugly, depending on your mood of the day. But I did love its double spring and speed control, so when I switched to a Schubert its motor board made the switch too. Of course I kept its details on file and provided them to Fran a few years later when he created his C-250/C-19 inventory (C-250 serial no. SM 33500).

Of course the Chippendale got the other motor board with the single spring and lack of speed control. Ron Haring is the major antique phono dealer around these parts. When I approached him about taking the Chippendale I was honest with him (for ethical reasons, plus that dude has a sharp eye). He's also a very, very tough businessman and I got very little for that modified machine.

My first DD machine was a cute A-100, which left my hands without any modifications (replaced by the Chippendale).

Well, enough memory lane for now.

M
Last edited by pughphonos on Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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-- Maria Callas, 1968 interview.

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Re: Inventory of Beethoven and Schubert Edisonic phonographs

Post by marcapra »

Mindy, your modification of your Schubert motor board is not the first time that was done. As I described above, the dealer back in 1927 must have done the same thing you did with my Beethoven, as it has a speed control on top. I'm sure Fran would say that your Schubert and my Beethoven are the only ones in the inventory like that.

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