s

[larryh]

I am no expert here, but isn't the electric edison record a different system and wouldn't be interchangeable?

[Valecnik]

Having owned both a C2 and C4 Edison Electric, (both expertly rebuilt)I would say they sound about as good a similar victor, columbia or brunswick product of that era. They have that somewhat mellower more full "tube sound" you get with a tube amplifier. They did not seem as sharp and crisp as an acoustic phonograph. Of course they were somewhat louder than an acoustic but not a great deal so, even at full volume.

If you lack space and want one setup to play both lateral and vertical discs, I would suggest you buy a circa 1960 tube amp. I have a fischer 500C. Add a 10 band equalizer of any vintage. I have a 1970's yamaha. Buy a new turntable from Esoteric sound or one or some other company and the appropriate styli, at least a .35mil and .5mill (best for diamond discs. With that combination, dropping the high and low bands of the EQ way down, you get that 1929 tube sound, clearer and more crisp and enough volume, if you like that, to wake the dead (with virtually no record wear). You can add other equipment like de-clicker to clean it up even further but it's really not necessary.

I still like to play the records on original equipment too, and I do. However if it's really optimal sound out of vertical and lateral records I'm after I use my setup as described above.

[Valecnik]

PS: The later electric diamond discs and 78s are awesome on such a setup of course but you can make even the old black label diamond discs sound very very good.

[Valecnik]

PPSS: If you really want to go with an original Edison electric phono, only the C1 or C2 will do. The C4 only played lateral cut records. Given that the C1 cost about $1,000 new in 1928 or so it's virtually nonexistent. I know of one in California. That means you need to find yourself a C2. They are also not very common but they do turn up.

[gregbogantz]

I own a C-2 and C-4 and I have heard a C-1. As Valecnik stated, the C-1 and C-2 are the only models that were designed to play both vertical DDs (not recommended for Pathé Sapphire records due to the small stylus size) and lateral needle cut records. The phono pickup uses a unique stylus bar that holds the typical Edison diamond point for DD playback. And there is also a needle chuck with set screw that holds a steel needle for lateral record playback. The sound is typical of 1928 model radios and electric phonos. With the exception that the C-1 and C-2 also included a "scratch filter" circuit which cannot be switched out (without an internal wiring change) when playing records. Edison propaganda stated that this was included to clean up the noise from lateral records, but the DDs actually sound noisier than laterals of the period due to the inherently lower signal to noise (S/N) ratio of the DDs. Consequently, the C-2 has a tubby and boomy sound with poor treble when playing records compared with, say, a Victor RE-45 or RE-75 from 1929. I, too, recommend using modern playback equipment for getting the full sound out of electrically recorded DDs and laterals. And such equipment will inflict very little damage to your records. But if you want the authentic sound of playing an electric Edison DD on period equipment, your only choice is an Edison C-1 or C-2. No other consumer electronic record players were sold in the USA that play vertical recordings (maybe there were some european models I'm not aware of). There was some professional equipment sold for vertical record playback in this period, notably from Western Electric. But the WE records were made with a different groove shape and size from that used in the DDs, so the WE vertical pickups probably won't work well with the Edison DDs.

[ChuckA]

Valecnik,

I know of 6 Edison C-1's existing, one at the Edison site in NJ and the rest in private collections.

Link to my C-1:
http://www.myvintagetv.com/edison_c1.htm



Greg,

I've restored about 15 C-2's and a couple of times I was asked to add a switch so the cap/coil network could be removed from across the volume control, it does help
the DD's but makes 78's really hard on the ears.

A few years ago I decided to test the frequency response of the C-2 amplifier. I had already done this for some RCA amps like the Tomcats.

I used an HP audio generator as the source connected to the input jacks on the radio chassis, terminated the generator with a 1500 ohm resistor to simulate the pickup load and measured the output levels at the output transformer with the speaker connected and with the volume control at max.

The reference level was 1000 Hz. Measured bandwidth was 750 Hz to 2200 Hz
The low frequency -3dB point was 450 Hz, the -6dB point was 350 Hz. The high frequency -3dB point was 5300 Hz and the -6db point was 9500 Hz
The low end roll off was 6dB/octave and the high end roll off was 3dB/octave.


I had planned on doing the same test but including the pickup, using the WE frequency test records as the source, through the amp to the actual speaker output using a
calibrated microphone, but just never got back to that project.


Chuck

[Schmaltz]

Okay, I guess I have to throw my two cents in on this topic as well, seeing that I also have a C-2 (had it about fifteen years now, still needs some cosmetic work but is fully operational: ChuckA, in fact, worked on the reproducer for that puppy and he did a great job!).

Mine has a non-original output transformer and speaker cone, being switched to 8 ohms out of necessity (original cone broken beyond repair). I still have the original output transformer, so it could be switched back to the single-turn Peerless coil if I really wanted to, but frankly I think the frequency response is crisper and better with the setup I've got now - not "boomy" at all, and not midrangy either - mellow without being obnoxious in either direction.

A friend (and former neighbor) rebuilt the power supply with me, thankfully, since he had much more experience with late 20s units than I did. He knew how to work with the paper capacitors in this region. I'm used to the later ones, with the electrolytic caps, so my intuition would have been way off. Also unique, in my experience up to that point, was the half-wave rectifier. From some of the biasing, not optimal for the 50 tube as it turns out, it appears the Splitdorf engineers detuned the circuit so that the 50 tube wouldn't overdraw the rectifier.

The few times I've played regular 78s in this machine have been with a cactus needle in the lateral chuck. That works OK, but it's still a bit strident. The radio sounds OK, typical late 20s sound, on a par with a Philco Junior I used to have. With an Edison DD on the turntable, it is uniquely sweet. I don't have that many electrics, and most of them actually sound better on the stereo as "valecnik" has said, but the records that get played on this unit sound quite good.

[Schmaltz]

I also have to include the one misgiving I have, regarding the C2 reproducer, and that is the movement of the stylus bar: instead of being parallel with the groove, i.e. the point of the needle remaining true to the lower vortex, the stylus bar moves perpendicularly to the groove. The needle point, hypothetically, can dig a bit into the sides of the groove when the stylus bar moves appreciably (such as when the surface of the record "rumbles" slightly due to water damage of the core beneath).

I can see why they designed the reproducer like this, so they could play vertical records without a huge redesign and therefore saving lots of money, but unless that needle and bar are aligned exactly right then it can start to destroy records pretty fast. The effect would be similar to having a bent flat-spring on an acoustic Edison reproducer so that the weight wasn't parallel with the disc surface.

[Valecnik]

Chuck, Thanks for the information and especially the excellent pictures of your C1. The picture of the electrical pickup turned on it's side is especially good for explaining to people how they actually work. Before I actually saw one, I'd read about it in the Frow book but could not imagine how it could play both vertical and lateral discs without actually changing the reproducer head. I'm very curious how you came across this machine, the condition it was in and how much you had to do to restore it.

Some years ago when I lived in the US, this was at the top of my list of "must have" machines. Never found one for sale and now that I'm living in Europe I more or less gave up and shifted focus to smaller stuff, if you can call Amberola 1's and Diamond Discs smaller

Also great discussion on the technical side by Greg, others. If I ever do come across one of these I won't be afraid to buy it due to lack of knowledge about how to restore the electronics now.

Cheers, Bruce

[ChuckA]

Bruce,

I bought my C-1 about 18 years ago, I was at one of Bilton's phono shows in Ohio and a dealer from NJ had a listing of various consoles he was selling. When I saw the C-1 on the list I jumped on it. When I drove up to pick it up I also ended up buying an RCA RAE-68. The C-1 had major water damage to the top and the finish on the base was gone and the grille was broken out, My cabinet restorer was able to repair the top and made a new grille from what was remaining of the original and pictures of the unit at the Edison site I had taken.

There is a design problem with the power supply in the C-2, it is even mentioned in the service notes. The single 81 rectifier can't supply enough current to the 50 output tube at its optimal performance point, so effectively it is "throttled", the C-1 isn't really much better as they use parallel 50's and 2 81's.
Another interesting design is the way they reduced hum from the half wave rectifier. Usually with a half wave rectifier you need very large capacitors to filter the 60 cycle hum component on the B+. In this unit they applied an out of phase hum component into the output stage to cancel the hum component on the plate of the 50 tube.

On the pickup - I set the tracking force at 4 grams then adjust the centering of the armature in the pole pieces with the pickup resting on a record using the diamond stylus. If you don't do this and set the centering without a load on the stylus, when you place the pickup on the record the weight of the pickup will move the armature off center due to the way the stylus is mounted to the armature. Also the magnet must be remagnitized, you would be surprised how much output level can be gained by this. When the pickup is correctly setup the output voltage measured across a 1000 ohm load will be above 1 volt p-p when playing a DD, about 0.3 - 0.5 volts higher for electric 78's depending on the needle used.

I guess that's enough electronics for today.

Chuck