A question for EARLY C250 owners

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fran604g
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A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by fran604g »

For those of you with C250's, specifically, and especially below serial number 30,000, please.

Hi folks,

I'm currently working on the history of the C250/C19, and have some questions in addition to the ones I posted for the C250/C19 Database Project http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=16837.

You'll need to remove the turntable to inspect the governor. Don't forget to turn the speed control knob all the way down [clockwise] to the "stop" position first [Or let the machine run all the way down].

1) What is the serial number?

2) Does your governor have 2 or 3 springs?

3) This concerns the slot (an anti-torque feature) in the governor sleeve (the end with the speed regulator "disk"):
Does your governor have a screw with a SLEEVE BUSHING in the oblong machined slot, or does it have only a SCREW HEAD in the slot?

4) Is your motorplate flat along the entire top surface, or does it have a circular depression? (See photos)

SLEEVE BUSHING
GFP B 250 captioned.JPG
SCREW HEAD
Standard on 2nd version motorplate captioned (Large).JPG
FLAT
Flat (Large).JPG
CIRCULAR
Circular (Large).JPG

Thank you all for your help,
Fran
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Discman
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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by Discman »

1) What is the serial number: 12011

2) Does your governor have 2 or 3 springs: 2

3) Does your governor have a screw with a SLEEVE BUSHING in the oblong machined slot, or does it have only a SCREW HEAD in the slot: Screw Head Only

4) Is your motorplate flat along the entire top surface, or does it have a circular depression: Flat

Dave Jolley

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by Lucius1958 »

Serial number: 7265

Governor: 2 spring

Sleeve bushing: yes

Motorplate: flat

Bill

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by fran604g »

Thank you, Dave and Bill!

Some time ago, I read an account of repairmen removing the "roller"* from the governor on the Type B mechanism (June 1915 issue of Talking Machine World), and I could not figure out what the "roller" was! There's nothing with that word applied to it in the Patent, and when I examined two different mechanisms, I found nothing that I would call a roller (the two units I examined used the screw-head version). It wasn't until I examined George Paul's B-250 that it became apparent to me that there really had been a roller used on the governor.

If you'd like to do a little reading, the June 1915 issue of Talking Machine World has some "Don'ts" for the mechanism, and the September 1915 issue has an account of John Constable's demonstration of the Type B mechanism (that he performed at the August 9 Dealer's Convention).

*I should note that although I used the term "sleeve bushing" the correct term for it is "roller". Also, I used the specific terms "sleeve bushing" and "screw head" in my questionnaire only to simplify my questions. As for the "screw head", it is actually a precision shoulder screw.

Best,
Fran
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"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by tarheeltinkerer »

1) What is the serial number: 6702

2) Does your governor have 2 or 3 springs: 2

3) Does your governor have a screw with a SLEEVE BUSHING in the oblong machined slot, or does it have only a SCREW HEAD in the slot: My machine is in storage, but I believe it has the sleeve brushing.

4) Is your motorplate flat along the entire top surface, or does it have a circular depression: Flat

Frank

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by fran604g »

tarheeltinkerer wrote:1) What is the serial number: 6702

2) Does your governor have 2 or 3 springs: 2

3) Does your governor have a screw with a SLEEVE BUSHING in the oblong machined slot, or does it have only a SCREW HEAD in the slot: My machine is in storage, but I believe it has the sleeve brushing.

4) Is your motorplate flat along the entire top surface, or does it have a circular depression: Flat

Frank
Thank you, Frank!
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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by marcapra »

What is the serial number: 58189

2) Does your governor have 2 or 3 springs: 2

3) Does your governor have a screw with a SLEEVE BUSHING in the oblong machined slot, or does it have only a SCREW HEAD in the slot: Screw head only

4) Is your motor plate flat along the entire top surface, or does it have a circular depression: Flat


I can see my machine is quite a bit higher than the others here. Would that mean mine is from 1918?

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by wjw »

Hello, Fran:

C-250 # 18288

Two-spring gov

Screw head only- no bushing.

Deck is flat.

- Bill

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by Lucius1958 »

fran604g wrote:Thank you, Dave and Bill!

Some time ago, I read an account of repairmen removing the "roller"* from the governor on the Type B mechanism (June 1915 issue of Talking Machine World), and I could not figure out what the "roller" was! There's nothing with that word applied to it in the Patent, and when I examined two different mechanisms, I found nothing that I would call a roller (the two units I examined used the screw-head version). It wasn't until I examined George Paul's B-250 that it became apparent to me that there really had been a roller used on the governor.

If you'd like to do a little reading, the June 1915 issue of Talking Machine World has some "Don'ts" for the mechanism, and the September 1915 issue has an account of John Constable's demonstration of the Type B mechanism (that he performed at the August 9 Dealer's Convention).

*I should note that although I used the term "sleeve bushing" the correct term for it is "roller". Also, I used the specific terms "sleeve bushing" and "screw head" in my questionnaire only to simplify my questions. As for the "screw head", it is actually a precision shoulder screw.

Best,
Fran
Actually, the "rollers" referred to were part of the "shock-proof" governor, used for a period on the Type B motor: a more complex mechanism than the standard governor, and which proved difficult to service.

There is a thread on the subject here: View topic - Edison "shock proof" Gover ... Recordings

Bill

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Re: A question for EARLY C250 owners

Post by fran604g »

Lucius1958 wrote:Actually, the "rollers" referred to were part of the "shock-proof" governor, used for a period on the Type B motor: a more complex mechanism than the standard governor, and which proved difficult to service.

There is a thread on the subject here: View topic - Edison "shock proof" Gover ... Recordings

Bill
Thanks, Bill, for bringing up this old post.

That's my own post from back in November when I began to research the three spring “shock proof” governor that is on my C 250. I hadn't planned on getting too in depth on this topic, but I feel compelled to explain myself.

Since that November post, I’ve discovered a few things:

As it turns out, that version of governor (in my C 250) was not introduced until the 1920's; it was known as the “CENTRIFUGAL SPEED GOVERNOR” (Patent No. 1,583,783; filed November 14, 1923; awarded May 11, 1926).

I've determined that my C 250 mechanism had indeed been upgraded by a previous owner (probably in the mid 1920's) as it has this later type governor and a Dance Reproducer. These two features, and evidence that the mechanism was incredibly well maintained, suggests that the original owner truly cherished his C 250 and applied the available upgrades when they became available. This would have occurred many years after originally purchasing the machine, and of course, it's just as possible that a second (or third) owner may have done the improvement...I'll never know for certain.

I've also determined that the term Frow uses - "the shock proof governor" - refers to an engineered feature that protected the governor (on the Type B mechanism, specifically) from torsional damage to the weight springs from the “shock” of typically starting and stopping the Phonograph. I haven’t discovered the term “shock proof governor” used in any T. A. Edison Inc. period literature (or elsewhere) , and in my opinion, it seems to have been a term exclusively used by Frow in his Diamond Disc Phonographs [sic] book.

Additionally, in the article carried in the September 15, 1915 issue of Talking Machine World (I referenced earlier in this post) the term used for the torsional distress caused to the governor weight springs by sudden starting and stopping was called “tripping” (presumably by John Constable himself).

Taken from the above referenced article, MECHANISM OF THE NEW "B" TYPE OF EDISON DIAMOND DISC PHONOGRAPH - Synopsis of an Address by John Constable of the Edison Laboratory at the Dealers Convention [August 1915]:

"...the reasons for the adoption of the two ball governor instead of the three ball were given, namely: more easily balanced, both for standing and running balance, insures quiet operation, and also the theoretical consideration which led to the discovery that the governor must be correctly proportioned to the main spring, which it has to govern. The adjustment of the governor was spoken of and particular attention called to the guide roller on the governor sleeve, it being particularly brought out that this roller should never be removed, especially on the two ball governor."

This statement illustrates that a three spring governor had been previously tried and abandoned, and indeed; a three spring governor is shown in Patent No. 1,290,138 - FRICTION SPEED GOVERNOR - filed December 2, 1913; awarded January 7, 1919.

I have not observed any of these earlier three weight governors (shown in Patent No. 1,290,138) used on the Type B mechanisms that I've examined. Perhaps they were used on the Type A mechanism and abandoned with the development of the Type B mechanism?

On page 37 Frow includes a picture of a Type B mechanism with a three spring “shock proof” governor, and he continues to discuss the “shock proof” governor through page 38. Through my own observations, and diligent research, I now believe that he was referring to TWO completely different types of governor and may not have understood them very well.

The picture of the Type B mechanism, on page 37, is actually a later casting version (note the circular depression), and the three spring governor shown with it, suggests that this particular example may have been from the mid 1920‘s.

After sorting out what Frow was referring to, and doing a bit of my own research, it became obvious to me that there were at least TWO types of “shock proof” governors used on the Type B mechanism.

I shall refer to them as the "early type" and the "late type".

The “early type” shock proof governor I've observed had two weights, was relatively simple, and there were at least TWO VERSIONS of it. The only version of the “late type” shock proof governor I've observed had three weights and was much more complex than the “early type“:

1) The FIRST “early type” was provided with a machined slot in the governor sleeve, coupled with a machine screw and sleeve bushing (ROLLER) comprising the anti-torsion components. (See photo below)
First Early Type.JPG

2) The SECOND “early type” retained the machined slot in the governor sleeve, BUT, eliminated the sleeve bushing (ROLLER) and used only a precision shoulder screw comprising the anti-torsion components.
Second Early Type.JPG

3) The “late type” governor (“CENTRIFUGAL SPEED GOVERNOR” - Patent No. 1,583,783) had three springs (three weights), and a system of two flanges with three pins and three sockets. The flange with the pins was anchored to the governor shaft on the end away from the friction (speed regulating) disc. The flange with the sockets was free to slide longitudinally along the governor shaft allowing the centrifugal weights to extend outward and control the speed of the mechanism. The pins of the one flange fit into the corresponding holes in the other flange, and prevented the springs from twisting, or "tripping". (See photo below)
Late Type Governor (Large).JPG
Please remember that these are my own observations, and as more research is conducted, they may change.

Best,
Fran
Francis; "i" for him, "e" for her
"Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" - the unappreciative supervisor.

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