Columbia "client" disc machine?

[fran604g]

Related to the recent post by Torjazzer asking "Columbia machine ID needed" here http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=24573, I have questions in relation to another machine, and further along the lines of the Columbia "client" machines in particular.

Recently there was a neat little non-descript disc machine with a black horn, styled very similar, if not identical, to the ones being discussed in Torjazzer's thread.

The cabinet is very simple and plain; it was listed as a "Columbia/Sears/Montgomery Ward" (if I remember correctly), and it sold quite reasonably in my opinion ($295 + $68 shipping; I was NOT the purchaser).

Can someone here answer a few questions for me?

1) Is this machine a Columbia "client" machine, or something else, and would it have been produced exclusively for Sears, or other(s)?

2) Is the soundbox correct, and identifiable?

3) Was this style of horn typical for use in the States, or was it intended mostly for export?

Any additional information about this type of talking machine would be greatly appreciated. Personally, I find it very attractive in it's simplicity.

Best,
Fran

[epigramophone]

I will do my best to answer your questions as follows :

1) If the horn is original to the machine, I do not think we are looking at a Columbia client model for the reasons stated in (3) below.

2) The soundbox appears to be a late 1920's or 1930's replacement.

3) The horn is known as the "Peacock Feather" pattern and is very commonly found on European machines, especially those of German or Swiss manufacture.

Roger.

[fran604g]

Thank you, Roger, that's interesting.

I also just realized that the "eye" portion of peacock feather horn pattern - embossed into the outer ring - is 90 degrees perpendicular to the "eye" on my unique little unknown Hungarian disc "Gramophone" (shown below).

I wonder if that might possibly be considered an "identifier" for different manufacturer's versions of the peacock feather design?

Best,
Fran

[Uncle Vanya]

I will do my best to answer your questions as follows :

1) If the horn is original to the machine, I do not think we are looking at a Columbia client model for the reasons stated in (3) below.

2) The soundbox appears to be a late 1920's or 1930's replacement.

3) The horn is known as the "Peacock Feather" pattern and is very commonly found on European machines, especially those of German or Swiss manufacture.

Roger.

This machine is ABSOLUTELY a Columbia client machine. These cabinets have been found with the Royal name plate and the National Women's League and Yankee Prince decalcomania, among others. I suspect that this particular machine is a National Women's League or Yankee Prince model which has been refinished, as there are not the tell-tale holes from the escutcheon pins used to hold the Royal name plate in position. Beginning in 1912 Columbia used imported motors and horns in their cheaper machines, culminating in their importation of complete machines from Europe (the Europa open horn and hornless machines with their elaborate stamped sheet metal cabinets). Columbia was using these imported embossed horns on a number of machines in that period. They are found coccasionally with the Columbia screw fitting.

[alang]

I own a nearly identical machine to the one posted by Fran. It is definitely a Columbia client machine and was sold under different brand names. The best known is the Royal Talking Machine. which is displayed on page 210 of The Talking Machine Compendium. Only difference is the speed control. The same type machine was also sold by Sears under the "Oxford" brand and by Montgomery Ward and maybe others. There are several threads on this forum discussing these and similar machines.

I have to disagree with Roger, the reproducer is absolutely correct. It is an unmarked Columbia Concert Grand reproducer from around 1908-1912. Under the cover plate it has a mica diaphragm, not an aluminum diaphragm.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=3690
http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=4396
http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=5128

Andreas

[fran604g]

Wow, perfect! Thanks Uncle Vanya and alang!

There is no doubt that this was what you both claim it to be, and I appreciate everybody's input. I suppose I should have conducted a little better search before asking, but I just didn't know where to start.

Now, what about the difference of the peacock feather "eye" embossment between this Columbia and my Hungarian "Gramophone"? What are your opinions? Do you think this can be a way to identify different horn manufacturers of the period?

I'm trying to understand how European sensitivities toward "styles" may have played into subtle differences, if there is any connection - that is.

Fran

[De Soto Frank]

Interesting machine...

Is the light-weight "pillar & plate" motor of Columbia manufacture ?


I agree with Andreas, regarding the Concert Grand Reproducer.


Columbia seems to have furnished some of their reproducers with metal diaphragms for client machines... I was helpiing a forum member with reproducer ID for a Reginaphone / Grafonola, and I discovered that most Reginaphones I found in the interwebs seemed to have come with unmarked Columbia # 5 reproducers with metal diaphragms stamped with radial ridges, while those used on Columbia machines had mica diaphragms.

The couple of Grand / Concert Grand Columbia boxes I have employ mica diaphragms.

One of the client machines in the threads that Andreas linked in his post appears to have a Columbia #6 reproducer, with a metal diaphragm.


Sometimes Columbia taxonomy is like trying to determine the heritage of a "rescue" pet from a shelter !

[Edisone]

That lightweight motor strikes me as a European cheapie

[alang]

My Royal/Oxford machine has a nearly identical motor, so I don't think it is European. The peacock type stamped metal horns were quite popular in Europe with many brands, but in the US I have only seen them with Columbia made machines.

Harvey Kravitz/Phonofreak focuses on Columbia client machines in his collection, so he should be able to provide a more authoritative answer to these questions.

Andreas

[Uncle Vanya]

My Royal/Oxford machine has a nearly identical motor, so I don't think it is European. The peacock type stamped metal horns were quite popular in Europe with many brands, but in the US I have only seen them with Columbia made machines.

Harvey Kravitz/Phonofreak focuses on Columbia client machines in his collection, so he should be able to provide a more authoritative answer to these questions.

Andreas

Columbia was, it appears, using imported motors in their cheap machines for a few years before the Great War interfered with their supply chain. These motors were built to Columbia's order, it seems, and used governors and governor drive gears which were compatible Columbia designs.