Wood grained cygnet questions.

[52089]

A number of toy train manufacturers in the early 20th century (e.g., Bing in Germany, Ives and American Flyer in the U.S.) made extensive use of lithography on freight/passenger cars, as well as stations. These pieces were then bent into shape, and oftentimes tabbed. However, I can't think of an instance where lithographed toy train components were crimped together, as in the sections of a polygonal phonograph horn. The train lithography was also on one side only. Of course, these toy companies had the specialized machinery to do this work.

The Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company (as well as smaller competitors) made extensive use of artists. Tea Tray in particular mocked Hawthorne & Sheble's use of applied floral decoration. But just imagine the fabulous designs that lithographed horns could have displayed! If the wood-grained Edison Cygnets were lithographed, why would the process have been limited only to wood grain?

Fascinating thread...!

George P.

Family friends used to run a metal toy company, best known for things like New Year's noisemakers and such. Lots of tin and steel lithography, and I'm sure some of these were crimped. I have no personal insight into the company, which was sold long ago, but if you search for "vintage metal toy" or similar I'm sure you can find images of these easily enough.

[fran604g]

A number of toy train manufacturers in the early 20th century (e.g., Bing in Germany, Ives and American Flyer in the U.S.) made extensive use of lithography on freight/passenger cars, as well as stations. These pieces were then bent into shape, and oftentimes tabbed. However, I can't think of an instance where lithographed toy train components were crimped together, as in the sections of a polygonal phonograph horn. The train lithography was also on one side only. Of course, these toy companies had the specialized machinery to do this work.

The Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company (as well as smaller competitors) made extensive use of artists. Tea Tray in particular mocked Hawthorne & Sheble's use of applied floral decoration. But just imagine the fabulous designs that lithographed horns could have displayed! If the wood-grained Edison Cygnets were lithographed, why would the process have been limited only to wood grain?

Fascinating thread...!

George P.

Family friends used to run a metal toy company, best known for things like New Year's noisemakers and such. Lots of tin and steel lithography, and I'm sure some of these were crimped. I have no personal insight into the company, which was sold long ago, but if you search for "vintage metal toy" or similar I'm sure you can find images of these easily enough.

I think the point I was trying to make is the difference between relatively heavy gauge steel, and really light gauge would determine the process in which it's formed. True, horns are a bit on the light gauge side, but nowhere near as thin, or as easily worked as toys would be.

Best,
Fran

[phonogfp]

True, horns are a bit on the light gauge side, but nowhere near as thin, or as easily worked as toys would be.

Very true. Those old tin trains can be bent up with one hand.

George P.

[Jerry B.]

Those old tin trains can be bent up with one hand.

Was the lovely Barbie forced to take away your toys and give you a time out?

annomous

[phonogfp]

Was the lovely Barbie forced to take away your toys and give you a time out?

annomous

Who do you think was mashing up the toy trains?!

George P.

[Uncle Vanya]

Respectfully, having worked in the metal fabrication industry for many years (machining, shearing, punching, press-brake forming, and rolling), and having formed many sheet steel parts into cones, cylinders, box shapes, etc., I can't imagine any scenario in which pre-finished components would NOT result in serious damage to the finish.

At the very least the parts would end up being seriously marred, and at the very worst the finish would be completely destroyed. That includes plating, anodizing, etc.

I honestly can't imagine any reason to pre-finish anything before forming it into any given shape. I'm not saying it couldn't be done (possibly) with very specialized equipment, but in a high-production facility, it certainly wouldn't make much sense to finish parts before forming. Otherwise everything would get finished twice: first for the pre-forming finish, and 2nd for extensive post-forming touch-up.

I would never have done it that way.

Best regards,
Fran

Well, pre-finished lithographed steel had been used for many items from the '90s onward. The techniques were more advanced in Europe, of course. A good example of such work, which was finshed before fabrication would be the famous Stollwerke chocolate phonograph:.

The Ericsson telephones were well known to have had lithographed metal housings. In point of fact modern decalcomania are available to aid in restoration.

A number of metal phonographs were produced with pre-fabtication Lithographed wood grained cabinets in the 1917-1920 period.

The German technique of lithographing realistic wood grain on large sheets of metal seems to have been introduced in the US in 1908 or 1909. Davies began offering Lithographed blanks for fabrication to many of their customers at that time, including the TTC.

By the mid-teens, heavy metal objects, such as desks, file cabinets, and even office wood work and doors were pressed out of pre printed grained metal. General Fireproofing and Shaw-Walker both purchased their Lithographed blanks from Davies

[fran604g]

Thank you for the tutorial, Uncle Vanya. That information is very appreciated.

I stand corrected - I'll have to spend some time further educating myself on the topic.

Best regards,
Fran

[fran604g]

I found just what I was curious of, with a google search of lithographed sheet metal fabrication machinery, in Volume 17 of the publication Machinery (Lester Grey French, July 1911, pg.897):

Below is my transcription of an article pertinent to our discussion.

It's interesting to note that "After being printed, the sheets are placed on large portable steel racks with wire shelves, one sheet being placed on each shelf. The rack is then placed in a gas-heated baking oven in which the colors are thoroughly baked onto the metal sheet." The finish would apparently have been much harder and durable than I thought.

Further: "The dies and other forming tools, however, must be made with a little greater clearance to allow for the thickness of the coating of paint and must be finished harder and smoother and with a greater degree of accuracy, so as not to scratch or mar the printed design." and "There is an even greater field for the development of automatic machinery' for lithographed work than for plain tin-can work, as forming and soldering operations particularly are extremely difficult to perform with automatic machines on lithographed metal work, with any degree of assurance that the work, when finished, will not be scratched or marred."

I would've expected to find very specialized dies that incorporated some type of protective surface being used. That's not the case, obviously to my complete surprise! Undoubtedly, the process didn't need to be the exclusive domain of the mundane yet exceptionally colorful, and economically lithographed "tin can".

However, noted in the first paragraph is a statement that sort of also vindicates my early thoughts: "This is not the case, except, of course, with large ship-ping cans, gasoline storage and other large "painted" cans, which are decorated by hand and are not only a lower grade, but also cheaper." I suppose this could relate to horns, and we know for a fact that horns were (in many cases) historically painted by hand.

My transcription (please excuse any missed spelling errors I may have missed):

Lithographed or Decorated Can Manufacturing-

Lithographed or fancy colored can manufacturing is not only
very interesting, but also about the most profitable work in
this line of manufacture, there being about as much differ-
ence in the quality of lithographed tin work as in ordinary
lithographed or printed work. Most people have the idea that
lithographed or decorated cans are painted after being made
up. This is not the case, except, of course, with large ship-
ping cans, gasoline storage and other large "painted" cans,
which are decorated by hand and are not only a lower grade,
but also cheaper.
The sheets from which the various parts of lithographed
cans and boxes are cut have the colors applied or impressed
on them "in the flat" in a lithographing press, which is very
similar to a large printing press, but far more costly. Tin
-lithographing presses will print from one to five colors at
one handling, depending upon the size and design of the press
used. The printing or transferring operation is performed
by means of large close-grained stones, carefully smoothed off,
cut to size and carved or engraved with the design to be trans
ferred or imprinted on the tin.
For lard-pail bodies and similar large receptacles, one stone
has but a single design cut in it, while stones for lithograph-
ing sheets from which are cut the covers or bodies of type
writer ribbon boxes, talcum powder boxes, etc., are engraved
to produce at one handling a printed sheet such as is shown
in Figs. 5 and 6. Both these illustrations show part of each
sheet already cut out, to illustrate the economical printing
and cutting of this class of work. In the sheets shown one-sixteenth
is allowed between the successive cuts, which
is the usual allowance for tin and other light stamping work.
This amount should be increased in proportion to the thick-
ness of the metal to be cut, so as to leave the scrap or uncut
portion of the sheet sufficiently stiff to prevent it being drawn
down into and plugging up the dies on the next cut After
being printed, the sheets are placed on large portable steel
racks with wire shelves, one sheet being placed on each shelf.
The rack is then placed in a gas-heated baking oven in which
the colors are thoroughly baked onto the metal sheet.
The cutting and forming of lithographed work is performed
in the same manner, and with tools of the same construction
throughout, as are used on plain tin or other metal. The dies
and other forming tools, however, must be made with a little
greater clearance to allow for the thickness of the coating of
paint and must be finished harder and smoother and with a
greater degree of accuracy, so as not to scratch or mar the
printed design.
This branch of can-manufacturing has been perfected to
such an extent as to almost permit of calling it an art.
Equally as much depends upon the design and the transferring
or lithographing, as upon the actual cutting and forming of
the various lithographed parts of cans, advertising signs,
trays, plates, etc. In fact, on the plate-rails of many homes
today are to be found lithographed tin or black-iron plates,
which are almost impossible to distinguish from the expensive
hand-painted china plates, although there is a difference in
the manufacturing and selling prices of the two of from five
hundred to fifteen hundred per cent. There is an even greater
field for the development of automatic machinery' for litho-
graphed work than for plain tin-can work, as forming and
soldering operations particularly are extremely difficult to per
form with automatic machines on lithographed metal work,
with any degree of assurance that the work, when finished,
will not be scratched or marred.

Regards,
Fran

EDIT:
I forgot to include the referenced Figs. 5&6:

[phonogfp]

Thanks for that information, Fran. It's obvious that full-size (e.g. for Edison or Columbia machines) phonograph horns could have been lithographed, but I'm not convinced that this was ever done. The quoted article cites less expense when using artists, so I can only reiterate:

The Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company (as well as smaller competitors) made extensive use of artists. Tea Tray in particular mocked Hawthorne & Sheble's use of applied floral decoration. But just imagine the fabulous designs that lithographed horns could have displayed! If the wood-grained Edison Cygnets were lithographed, why would the process have been limited only to wood grain?

George P.

[Mormon S]

Awesome thread, and definitely worthy of figuring out the process. I dont want to disrupt the flow of the conversation but I have a few more questions.

Where both decals present as they were on the normal #10 cygnet?

Was the collar on the elbow and the suspension rig painted over?

Was there any gold pinstiping?

Thanks
Martin