Wood grained cygnet questions.

[Valecnik]

Awesome thread, and definitely worthy of figuring out the process. I dont want to disrupt the flow of the conversation but I have a few more questions.

Where both decals present as they were on the normal #10 cygnet?

Was the collar on the elbow and the suspension rig painted over?

Was there any gold pinstiping?

Thanks
Martin

My wood grained 11 & 10 panel have only the large "no. 10 or 11" decal, no patent decal. Elbow and suspension painted. No gold pen striping. That does not mean every one was that way.

10 & 11 panel black both have the patent decal and gold wash collar.

[Mormon S]

Awesome thread, and definitely worthy of figuring out the process. I dont want to disrupt the flow of the conversation but I have a few more questions.

Where both decals present as they were on the normal #10 cygnet?

Was the collar on the elbow and the suspension rig painted over?

Was there any gold pinstiping?

Thanks
Martin

My wood grained 11 & 10 panel have only the large "no. 10 or 11" decal, no patent decal. Elbow and suspension painted. No gold pen striping. That does not mean every one was that way.

10 & 11 panel black both have the patent decal and gold wash collar.

Thank you so much for the info! I will give an honest attempt and obviously will update.

Martin

[Uncle Vanya]

Thanks for that information, Fran. It's obvious that full-size (e.g. for Edison or Columbia machines) phonograph horns could have been lithographed, but I'm not convinced that this was ever done. The quoted article cites less expense when using artists, so I can only reiterate:

The Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company (as well as smaller competitors) made extensive use of artists. Tea Tray in particular mocked Hawthorne & Sheble's use of applied floral decoration. But just imagine the fabulous designs that lithographed horns could have displayed! If the wood-grained Edison Cygnets were lithographed, why would the process have been limited only to wood grain?

George P.

Because the process was only really perfected in about 1908, and in America about 1910. By that time floral horns were pretty well passé. I dissassembled a damaged 11 panel bell some years ago, and noticed that the figure of the grain was folded under in the seams.

Note that the TTC was by 1910 a heavy user of lithography, the lithographed decoration having by then almost entirely displaced hand decoration in the firm's domestic and commercial wears. Their lighting fixture line was largely of brass and copper, but they did offer mahogany and oak grained metal reflectors, fixtures, and raceway products, Most of which were sold under the "Harvey Hubbell" trademark, Hubbell having purchased a substantial interest in the firm in 1907.

The firm also offered grained cabinets for their line of building fire extinguishers.

The National Metal Stamping Company was offering fabrication and lithography services in the late 'teens. Note that "The Newark Tea Tray Company" changed its name to "The National Metal Stamping Company" in April of 1912.

[Uncle Vanya]

Thanks for that information, Fran. It's obvious that full-size (e.g. for Edison or Columbia machines) phonograph horns could have been lithographed, but I'm not convinced that this was ever done. The quoted article cites less expense when using artists, so I can only reiterate:

The Tea Tray Company and the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company (as well as smaller competitors) made extensive use of artists. Tea Tray in particular mocked Hawthorne & Sheble's use of applied floral decoration. But just imagine the fabulous designs that lithographed horns could have displayed! If the wood-grained Edison Cygnets were lithographed, why would the process have been limited only to wood grain?

George P.

Because the process was only really perfected in about 1908, and in America about 1910. By that time floral horns were pretty well passé. I dissassembled a damaged 11 panel bell some years ago, and noticed that the figure of the grain was folded under in the seams.

Note that the TTC was by 1910 a heavy user of lithography, the lithographed decoration having by then almost entirely displaced hand decoration in the firm's domestic and commercial wears. Their lighting fixture line was largely of brass and copper, but they did offer mahogany and oak grained metal reflectors, fixtures, and raceway products, Most of which were sold under the "Harvey Hubbell" trademark, Hubbell having purchased a substantial interest in the firm in 1907.

The firm also offered grained cabinets for their line of building fire extinguishers.

The National Metal Stamping Company was offering fabrication and lithography services in the late 'teens. Note that "The Newark Tea Tray Company" changed its name to "The National Metal Stamping Company" in April of 1912.

[JerryVan]

If the grained horns were indeed pre-printed, by any method, there would certainly be repetition of the grain patterns. Maybe not within the same horn, but certainly there would be identical grain patterns noticed from one horn to the next. I can't possibly believe that unique grain patterns were generated for every horn! That being said, until someone can produce photos of identically repeated grain patterns, I remain of the opinion that the horns were hand grained.

[zonophpones7]

I have seen many examples of original wood grained horns... on close inspection you can see the artists hand....the brush strokes... faux painting was a common technique to save money and still have the look of wood. It was done on many things including furniture, doors, etc. labor was cheap and these artisans could knock them out quickly. I actually have a fancy base cabinet for a class M with original faux mahogany finish... the wood underneath is quarter sawn oak! If you inspect an example that has flaking off finish you can also see the layers used in the process. A litho finished panel would look too cookie cutter...too perfect. Look at an original closely...it is far from perfect...but the imperfections mimic real wood and it's variability. As for the thickness variations... I think it likely the surface was top coated which would smooth out the variation, at least to some degree.
Just my two cents...
Gregg

[phonogfp]

If the grained horns were indeed pre-printed, by any method, there would certainly be repetition of the grain patterns. Maybe not within the same horn, but certainly there would be identical grain patterns noticed from one horn to the next. I can't possibly believe that unique grain patterns were generated for every horn! That being said, until someone can produce photos of identically repeated grain patterns, I remain of the opinion that the horns were hand grained.

I must agree, based on the horns I've seen and own.

It's possible that the horns were assembled after being false-grained, but I believe the painting was done by artists rather than lithography. There's a full-page image of a Tea Tray horn that was clearly hand-painted prior to assembly on page 45 of Antique Phonograph Accessories & Contraptions.

But my question is focused on lithography. I'd be grateful to see photos of a Cygnet with original grain paint showing identical grain in two or more panels.

George P.

[Uncle Vanya]

Remember that when metal for fabrication was lithographed, a full sheet would be printed. The parts would then be cut out, not exactly at random, but an assembler would go to some pains to make certain that adjacent panels did not bear identical grain patterns.

Now, a lithographed surface would be quite smooth, utterly lacking in the brush lines whch characterize hand graining. The thing would feel like the surface of, say a Carola cabinet, or an Edison tin advertising sign of, 1910 vintage. I had one oak grained horn, which came on a VERY late Model F home which had a surface as smooth as a mirror. There were also noticable printed black lines in the grain. This was the horn which I dissected after its finish was destroyed.

I'm fairly familiar with both types of graining, for the woodwork in my summer place was professionally grained when the house was built Bach in the '60s; rosewood in the parlors, curly maple in the dining room, quartered oak in the chambers.

[Valecnik]

If the grained horns were indeed pre-printed, by any method, there would certainly be repetition of the grain patterns. Maybe not within the same horn, but certainly there would be identical grain patterns noticed from one horn to the next. I can't possibly believe that unique grain patterns were generated for every horn! That being said, until someone can produce photos of identically repeated grain patterns, I remain of the opinion that the horns were hand grained.

I must agree, based on the horns I've seen and own.

It's possible that the horns were assembled after being false-grained, but I believe the painting was done by artists rather than lithography. There's a full-page image of a Tea Tray horn that was clearly hand-painted prior to assembly on page 45 of Antique Phonograph Accessories & Contraptions.

But my question is focused on lithography. I'd be grateful to see photos of a Cygnet with original grain paint showing identical grain in two or more panels.

George P.

I've got three oak wood grained cygnets. No two panels are the same on any of them.