Edison with back bracket and tone arm

[gramophoneshane]

There is also this thread on the Keen attachment....viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26457&hilit=keen+attachment

That's the one, and I'm delighted to report that it has found a new home!

However, I don't want to hijack this thread. I'm interested to learn if Shane's mysterious back bracket is magnetic, and if it was cast or machined. I'd also like to see how it attaches to the cabinet.

George P.

George, that Keen attachment is wild.

It would be interesting to get all 3 in a room to compare sound quality, any design flaws etc.
I kind of wished it was designed for a Diamond B reproducer when I first got it, but now I'm glad it uses a K or H.
I think it sounds just as good as my A1 preferring to use it with wax Amberola, because they're not getting the extra weight of the M, plus I always feel like I'm going to break them manouvering past the lid, stationary reproducer and sliding mandrel.
I feel far more confident with the open spaces of the Home, and a horn I can easily turn away for a clear view and access to the mandrel.

I'm hoping tomorrow I'll get around to pulling this whole attachment apart and will photograph all the components.
What I can tell you now is that the back bracket is not magnetic so is probably brass, and the bracket is attached via 3 Roundhead set screws that pass through the cabinet into a backing plate the same shape as the bracket with 3 threaded holes, more or less Victor style.
I'll be taking the bracket off the case so pictures of those will be included too.

When I bought this machine I had no idea any of this type of attachment was so rare, and can't recall ever knowing of the keens existence. I thought there'd be dozens of these floating around in other collections, and I only wish I'd had the opportunity to question it's last owner, John Simpson, about how and where he acquired it, and from what source his belief it was German came from.
I'm quite certain this is an original manufactured item and not something made up in a machinist shop. It just looks and works to good to be something made up as a one-off by someone not In the phonograph industry
I think if it's something you haven't come across before, then the German forum is possibly the only place I might get lucky enough to gain some information about this attachment.
Failing that, I might be left with searching Australian newspaper ads from the 1907-09 period, but I think thats going to be a needle in a haystack task.

Perhaps the exploded view will reveal something about its origins tomorrow?

[gramophoneshane]

I would like to see a closeup of the elbow. I’ve had one in my parts drawer for years that nobody could identify. It might be like this one. Dimensions would be great too. Looking to solve a mystery.

Wes

Wes, do you mean the horn elbow or tonearm elbow?
Normally I would think horn elbow, but this tonearm appears to have an elbow with the taper tube attached with some sort of collar with set screws attaching them together.
Either way there should be pictures of both coming tomorrow

[gramophoneshane]

I believe this arm could have been made by Excelsior of Germany. Page 98 of the Fabrizio/Paul book, A World of Antique Phonographs pictures what looks to be this very same attachment on an Excelsior Diamond model. I can't tell if your attachment was specifically made for the Edison Home or did this attachment originally come off a Diamond and someone added it to the Edison Home. Nonetheless, this may be a good starting point.

Scott

Thanks for letting me know.
I don't have that book unfortunately but I think I know someone who does.
If it's not one of the books in his collection, perhaps George could post the picture email there in this thread or send me a copy via PM?

I'm not even familiar with Diamond model Excelsior so don't know if the cabinet is about the same size as a Home or Standard Edison, but to me the attachment appears to be the right size and configuration for a Home but I'm pretty sure it'll be the wrong size to fit a Standard.
I'll have to check it against my Standard tomorrow once it's off.

It certainly is possible that it came off a Diamond and was added to the Home.
I have my doubts that Excelsior might have made a version to fit Edison machines though. Not when they were trying to sell phonograph models of their own.
Then again, maybe they did?
If they both turn out to be the same dimensions then it's safe to assume it is from the Excelsior machine.
That would be a little disappointing if it is, but I'd leave it on the Home because it works so well.
I suppose time will tell.

[phonohound]

I lean towards that the attachment was not made for the Edison. The Excelsior Diamond has a 6" long mandrel, which makes me think the cabinet size is close to that of an Edison Home. It would be great if someone has any additional information about the Excelsior Diamond or if there was a line-up for tonearm machine models.

[phonogfp]

Scott, I think you rang the bell.

After seeing Shane's new pictures, I agree that it's no handyman job. Despite the simple lines of the bracket, the angle/join to the plate that attaches to the Edison is professional, and the entire bracket looks cast. The tone arm of course is factory-made, and looks to be original to the bracket.

If it's indeed an Excelsior product, the question is whether or not the company offered these tone arm brackets separately for other machines. In any event, it looks like Mr. Simpson was correct in his identification of the device being German.

Here's the image referenced by Scott in A World of Antique Phonographs.

George P.

From "A World of Antique Phonographs" by Fabrizio & Paul. All Rights Reserved.

[downsouth]

I was referring to the horn elbow. I’ll try and post a photo of the one I have for reference.

Wes

[gramophoneshane]

My apologies for taking so long to reply. I've been trying to sign into my account for weeks, and only just discovered I'd somehow added an extra character to my password that was saved for my loggin.

Thank you for the identification and the picture too.
It's definitely an Excelsior, but as George has stated, whether or not the company sold these intended for use on an Edison is the question.

From what I've found online, not all Excelsior Diamonds were manufactured with this attachment, so I presume it was an optional extra available for that model, and the extending tonearm (visible in one of my previous photos) was designed with the longer mandrel in mind.
Unfortunately the advertising shown online don't include a date when the Diamond was shown either with a small horn mounted directly to the reproducers, or with the back bracket, so I don't know if at some point all Diamonds left the factory with the back bracket attached, or if either option was available at the same time, with the back bracket also available separately from dealers as a later upgrade.

It's hard to tell from pictures of machines online, but it appears the sleeve that slips over the reproducers neck is a little different to mine, so there's a possibility mine was designed for an Edison machine, but without seeing a close up of that sleeve from an Excelsior Diamond for comparison it's impossible to be sure.

Whether or not my back bracket came off an Excelsior or not I may never know, but I'm certainly more than happy I have it in its current form, because it's something that's different, especially on an Edison Home, and it works perfectly.

[gramophoneshane]

I'm also pleased that the horn that came with the machine is also an Excelsior horn.
It's unfortunate that the repair wasn't done a little more sympatheticly, but I'll look into having that remedied sometime in the future.
But for now, my intention is to strip the horn of its awful paint job, and attempt to repaint it a little more in line with the original decorative colours of similar Excelsior horns.
Hopefully that will give me a bit of practice getting it to look right before upgrading the repair and repainting it again

As for the horn elbow, I've included a couple px below. Unfortunately I can't seem to find my calipers atm to measure it, but I'll keep looking.
It's a pretty unique elbow though so shouldn't be to hard to identify.