Frequency Resp Comparison Between Hill & Date & Lateral Cut

[startgroove]

Something that I find a bit odd; Why didn't acoustic recording engineers apply Helmholtz's resonance theory to their work?

From Wikipedia: "Helmholtz described in his 1862 book, "On the Sensations of Tone", an apparatus able to pick out specific frequencies from a complex sound. The Helmholtz resonator, as it is now called, consists of a rigid container of a known volume, nearly spherical in shape, with a small neck and hole in one end and a larger hole in the other end to emit the sound.
When the resonator's 'nipple' is placed inside one's ear, a specific frequency of the complex sound can be picked out and heard clearly. In Helmholtz’ book we read: When we "apply a resonator to the ear, most of the tones produced in the surrounding air will be considerably damped; but if the proper tone of the resonator is sounded, it brays into the ear most powerfully…. The proper tone of the resonator may even be sometimes heard cropping up in the whistling of the wind, the rattling of carriage wheels, the splashing of water.""

Surely some form of this resonator could have been adapted to focus on a range of tones that were normally weak during the recording process.

Other work by Helmhotz confirms what we already know about sound and resonance of sound: Larger horns tend to accentuate lower frequencies and attenuate the higher frequencies. In an experiment I performed a few years ago, I attached a reproducer with a very small horn on one side of the diaphragm and a very large horn to the same reproducer on the other side of the reproducer diaphragm (see picture below).

I noted two affects. First, the larger horn did reproduce lower tones (though it may have reproduced them better had the lower range been recorded with more presence, or if the horn were even larger). The second thing is that there were phase differences between the two horns which when positioning my ears at just the right spot between the two horns, gave a pleasant "stereo" like affect to the sound.

[startgroove]

Here is another related link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_resonance
"Acoustic resonance is a phenomenon in which an acoustic system amplifies sound waves whose frequency matches one of its own natural frequencies of vibration (its resonance frequencies)."

[Menophanes]

In response to another thread, I copied the cover of my Dover edition of the Moses guide, which, curiously, features what must have been a Pathé session (Lucien Muratore and Lina Cavalieri) for a volume strictly about lateral cut disks. Regardless, it shows a two-horn recording mechanism, and I thought it might be of interest here in light of the current discussion.

I suspect that this photograph was posed so as to include as many of the participants as possible and that it does not represent the way they would have been positioned during the actual process. For example, where are their music-stands? (Orchestral musicians very rarely play from memory.) Would not the horn-player have stood with his back to the machine so that the bell of his instrument pointed towards the recording-horns? And would the conductor have stood where neither the soloists nor half the players could see him?

Many, perhaps most, of the images of acoustic recording studios show signs of this kind of manipulation. There is one showing Sir Henry Wood and the Queen's Hall Orchestra in about 1915. The camera faces one side of the room and the engineer's booth is on the far right, with the players (naturally enough) facing it, but Wood is placed at the back of the picture, directly in front of the camera but behind most of the players! Then there is one of Feodor Chaliapin recording with a chorus, again seen from one side of the studio; the members of the latter are shown standing one behind the other, as if they were queueing up to get access to the horn – an arrangement which allows them all to be visible but which would have led to a disastrous and totally needless imbalance on the record.

Stanley Chapple, who conducted for the Aeolian-Vocalion company in London, wrote an article for The Gramophone in about 1923 describing the layout which he used for recordings with an orchestra. Unfortunately I cannot remember the details, but I mention it as an example of the kind of written evidence which must be taken into account when trying to interpret these early photographs.

Even that written evidence, if it was not set down at the time, may be suspect. Joseph Batten of the Edison-Bell company alleges that the abridged version of Elgar's Dream of Gerontius was made in a studio measuring thirty-two feet by eight – the interior dimensions of a moderate bus – and he ought to have known, since he was the conductor. And yet a photograph in a brochure issued by the company a year earlier (1924) shows Batten with a singer and an orchestra of twenty or so in a much larger room, at least as wide as it is long. Would the company, having this space available, imperil the most prestigious enterprise in its history by cramming a larger ensemble (25 players and up to 10 singers) into a smaller chamber? Writing thirty years later, Batten must have succumbed to the very common tendency to exaggerate one's early difficulties.

Oliver Mundy.

[recordmaker]

I don't think the photograph is posed to get more people in I have seen other Pathé studio pictures and the arrangement is similar, and with the small horns used necessary.It is possible to distinguish a candid or authentic picture if you can see the performers mostly pointing a the horn or horns and I agree that those where the majority face the camera are not indictive of the arrangement while recording.

In my recent tests of acoustic French horn recording on to disc a few weeks ago ( real live French horn real wax disc), the instrument would need to be turned toward the recording horn only if further away than shown in the picture and is when, shown in Joe Battens book by the way, but in these Pathé conditions the set up is fine and the horn is there to body up the sound not to perform as a solo I assume.

The music stands were normally suspended from the ceiling for obvious logistical reasons and could have been removed during the photo but it is possible for musicians to play for 3 min without the dots if the job requires it.

Re Dream of Gerontius It may have been a typo as 8 foot wide would be tricky even for the most modest studio and 18 or 28 foot as you suggest a more nearly square room makes more sense.
I cant get to my copy of the book at the moment due to lockdown restrictions.
the one full studio picture with orchestra and piano in then is a more nearly square room as far as I can tell.

[startgroove]

Here's a person who has been experimenting with different length recording horns. His notes seem to indicate that voice recordings sound better with a longer recording horn.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ac ... ORM=VDRVRV

[Wolfe]

I don't think the photograph is posed to get more people in I have seen other Pathé studio pictures and the arrangement is similar,

You can see a bit of film here (0:20) with a similar arrangement at a Pathé session. Could be just as posed as a photo too.

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

[drh]

I don't think the photograph is posed to get more people in I have seen other Pathé studio pictures and the arrangement is similar,

You can see a bit of film here (0:20) with a similar arrangement at a Pathé session. Could be just as posed as a photo too.

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

Interesting! The film does omit some steps unique to Pathé, transferring the original recording on oversized cylinder to a disc recording blank.

I suspect any viewers of this film who work for OSHA are flipping out right about now....

All that said, thank you for sharing!

[Menophanes]

I don't think the photograph is posed to get more people in I have seen other Pathé studio pictures and the arrangement is similar, and with the small horns used necessary.It is possible to distinguish a candid or authentic picture if you can see the performers mostly pointing a the horn or horns and I agree that those where the majority face the camera are not indicative of the arrangement while recording.

In my recent tests of acoustic French horn recording on to disc a few weeks ago ( real live French horn real wax disc), the instrument would need to be turned toward the recording horn only if further away than shown in the picture and is when, shown in Joe Battens book by the way, but in these Pathé conditions the set up is fine and the horn is there to body up the sound not to perform as a solo I assume.

The music stands were normally suspended from the ceiling for obvious logistical reasons and could have been removed during the photo but it is possible for musicians to play for 3 min without the dots if the job requires it.

Re Dream of Gerontius It may have been a typo as 8 foot wide would be tricky even for the most modest studio and 18 or 28 foot as you suggest a more nearly square room makes more sense.
I cant get to my copy of the book at the moment due to lockdown restrictions.
the one full studio picture with orchestra and piano in then is a more nearly square room as far as I can tell.

I am very interested to hear of your experiments in recording acoustically on disc, especially as these involved that beautiful and very difficult instrument, the horn. Is it possible to hear the results anywhere, or at least to learn more about them?

Thank you for telling me about the suspended music-desks; I had not heard about this and had failed to notice something of the kind in two of Batten's illustrations (scanned below). It is clear from these that in the Edison-Bell studio the principle was available only for a few performers very near the horn; others are shown using normal floor-standing desks. Perhaps, however, Pathé applied the same idea more comprehensively.

I slightly misremembered Batten's account of the Gerontius recording; he gives the studio dimensions as 30 (not 32) feet by 8 and the orchestral numbers as 24 (including nine strings) rather than 25. The room shown in the 1921 and 1925 photographs is certainly much more than eight feet deep. Notice that Batten has Stroh violins (with horns), whereas Henry Wood uses normal strings.

Oliver Mundy.

Henry Wood conducting for Columbia, 1915 or later.

Edison-Bell recording session, 1921 (soloist J. W. Rickaby, conductor Joseph Batten).

Edison-Bell recording session, 1925 (same room as 1921), with pianist Marie Novello.

[recordmaker]

Great to see those pictures from the Batten book.
I really do think that this would have been the studio used for Gerontius and the 8 foot mentioned in the book is a typo but that is difficult to prove 30foot looks consistent with the pictures assuming the door to be 3 feet wide and the horn to be near the centre of the room but I just cant see how an 8' by 30' room ( more a corridor at that) could be used for the musicians and instruments needed.
I would guess 18 or 28 feet on the other dimension assuming a missing number is the typo.
At some point I thin Batten does say where the Gerontius recording was made I thing as Elgar was contractually unable to attend the sessions if that is the same location as the normal studio premises then I doubt they set up a deliberately smaller room for the recording session.

The recordings I was making are part of an academic paper( by another person) and I think this will now be delivered on line with the recording examples so I will keep you posted.

[Henry]

Interesting photo of the set-up for the Mendelssohn. Notice that violins are playing the Stroh violins. The "French" horns have piston valves, not the usual rotary valves, and resemble what used to be called mellophones in the band world. The small tuba next to the string bass is not specified in Mendelssohn's score, but is present to reinforce the string bass; this was customary in acoustical recordings. The whole setup is unbelievable cramped, and must have been quite uncomfortable for players accustomed to having more elbow room on stage. Also, playing in each others' ears is not exactly the most comfortable arrangement, either!

Assuming this is Mendelssohn's Piano Concerto no. 1 in G minor, op. 25 (1830), the orchestration specified in the score is woodwinds by twos, pairs of horns and trumpets (no low brass), two timpani, and strings. One notices that the photo doesn't show this full complement, either because the players were not present (i.e., not used), and/or there wasn't enough room for the photographer to get everybody in the picture.