Strange BA cylinder box

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gramophoneshane
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Strange BA cylinder box

Post by gramophoneshane »

Does anybody know what type/series BA cylinder used this box?

It's the only example I have, so I keep my only 2 min blue Amberol in it.
The label has no Edison picture, no patent dates and no form number.

It just states it's an Edison Blue Amberol record, with 3 flowers where you'd expect to find a picture of TAE.
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fran604g
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by fran604g »

Oldish home-made label?
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gramophoneshane
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by gramophoneshane »

The first time I saw this box my immediate thought was it came out of a Xerox machine in the 70's, but on closer examination over the years I'm almost 100% convinced this is a legitimate box from the 1920's, and not something home/collector made.

One thing that will probably convince most collector's this is a fake, is that this is a paste over label, on a normal orange and blue BA box, in exactly the same way every orange 4m blank box I've ever seen is a paste over label on 2 min Gold Moulded record boxes.
A small section of this label had lifted where the ends overlap, so I know it has a regular BA label underneath, but I couldn't see enough to tell which label variation it was unfortunately. What I could see looked perfect like brand new, so I believe it was new when this label was applied.

I am certainly no authority or expert in the evolution and technical advances of the printing industry, but it's my belief this is a professionallt printed label, and probably made by the same company who made the regular labels.
The marbled back ground of this label is made of the same size dots as those used in the shaded area of the regular, label, only there more of them and use different colours.
The horizontal lines on this box are exactly the size to fit between the inside edge of the lines on the regular label, and the lettering is the same height as the distance between the inside edges of the blue line lettering on the regular label.
If you could cut out the solid lettering in this label most would fit precisely inside the lettering on the regular label.

The exception is though, that the script style has been altered slightly,by adding a sort of tail on most letters. Most obvious example is the E in the word Blue.
The way these distances between lines and basic lettering seem to perfectly aline with each other leads me to believe it's a professional job rather than something a collector would have spent hours redesigning and doing for a one off or very limited run of labels. Especially when you can simply copy and print existing labels, which I have done many times to replace severely damaged original box labels.
Judging by the section on this label that lifted, this label appears to be the same type/gauge of paper, the ends overlap distance is the same, and it's equally as brittle, as the orange blue paper labels. Damage and wear seem pretty constant with other 90-100 yr old labels too. Even the exact same shade of blue ink is used.

So it my belief that this is an original Edison box, but why it was made and for what cylinder I do not know.
I could very well be wrong of course, and if a collector came along saying he made a few of these in 1987 for whatever reason and posted px of one he's got or something, then we'll and good. Mystery solved.
But after just over 40 yrs of collection stuff, this looks and feel right to me as something thats old and came from the Edison company.
Last edited by gramophoneshane on Fri May 08, 2020 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

StL Bill
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by StL Bill »

Is this possibly a Clarence Ferguson box? I remember seeing boxes that he made when he was still selling his large collection of new old stock B.A. records. I am just not sure if this is indeed one of them.

edisonplayer
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by edisonplayer »

It's possible. edisonplayer

gramophoneshane
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by gramophoneshane »

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Clarence Ferguson?

52089
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by 52089 »

StL Bill wrote:Is this possibly a Clarence Ferguson box? I remember seeing boxes that he made when he was still selling his large collection of new old stock B.A. records. I am just not sure if this is indeed one of them.
The few Ferguson boxes I've seen are regular BA boxes with his advertising label pasted over them. They look nothing like this.

gsphonos
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by gsphonos »

I have the same box. Can't remember right off hand, but I believe it was a cylinder box used in Australia. That is where I bought mine many years ago (or maybe it was New Zealand). Either way, it is a period box, and not some more recently made up cylinder box. They were made by or for a jobber/dealer down under, and they do show up from time to time. I have seen a number of examples over the years.

Also, I love Clarence Ferguson cylinder boxes. These were made after the end of Edison cylinder production, in 1929. Ferguson was the proclaimed "last Edison dealer." He bought up anything Edison, after the end of entertainment production in 1929, and still sold records at catalogue prices for some 35 or 40 years after 1929. Sometimes you find boxes that just have a rubber stamped advertisement for Ferguson, and other times you will get a cylinder box that has been covered with a pasteover label printed by Ferguson. Somehow, I wound up with a stack of his labels, which never were attached to cylinder boxes. He also sold "Ferguson Blanks," or wax blanks in a box made by him. These Feguson boxes are very collectible and interesting!!

Mike Sorter
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gramophoneshane
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by gramophoneshane »

Thank you for the conformation.
I didn't think it could have been of more recent manufacture I'm greatful I now know at least something about it.
I've been trying to think why any cylinder would warrant an entirely different label, and never thought it may have been related to a particular store or territory, thinking more about content.

Here in Australia we tended to get some pretty strange stuff from Edison.
Things never sold in USA, probably as a way to reduce stagnant factory stocks Americans would no longer buy, so we got "new" machine models, horns in a variety of colours, an 11 panel cygnet horn whether it was a standard or a triumph.
I think Edison saw Australia and New Zealand as a dumping ground for obsolete stock.
It seems electric diamond discs are easy to find here than in America, and judging by old news paper ads, we were getting boat loads from Edison shortly before and after the factory folded, music stores boasted of having hundreds of titles being sold in bulk lots at heavily discounted prices.
Many late DDS have a red ink "A" rubber stamped on the label, and occasionally also "Made in USA".
I assume this was done at the factory, perhaps A for Australia? But that's something I doubt you'd find in America, and it far too common to find them here in collections for them to have been done by a collector or even a particular store.
I think it's always worth remembering that just because you haven't seen or heard of something before, it doesn't mean it fake or doesn't exist.

On the old Edison forum a member refused to believe boxes existed labelled Edison Standard Record. I pulled out the first one I saw them posted a picture, but was told it only said that because it was a British series cylinder. Then I posted a pic of a regular 2m box with the same label.
He was convinceded no such box existed until my photos, simply because he hadn't seen one after 20 yrs of collecting.

I have no idea if you guys got the same concert series boxes as us. The changes were obviously to reduce manufacturing costs, which happened to the entire line of cylinders.
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drh
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Re: Strange BA cylinder box

Post by drh »

I have never seen such a box and am shooting in the dark here, but those flowers on the label look like chrysanthemums. Considering the boxes seem to be turning up in Australia, could they have been from export production intended for Japan?

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