Fiber needle wear

[Ho_Hum]

Hello, I just got a Wade No. 2 fiber needle cutter and some bamboo needles, but after using them on the same record a couple times it still is showing black deposits on the needle and seems to have worn the record out faster than steel. What gives, aren't these needles supposed to be extra gentle?

[HMVDevotee]

Ho-Hum,

Just curious, are you playing a cleaned record? Other's experiences may differ, but I have found that the black dust picked-up by both bamboo and thorn needles has been left on record by previous playings, I assume with steel, and actually wears the fiber needles faster than a clean record will. While multiple playings with fiber needles seems to clean out the grooves a bit, when I have a record with "shellac dust" in the grooves, I wash it properly, then play it after a complete drying period. Then, my thorn needles in particular do not appear to produce any wear as evidenced by new "shellac dust," and fiber needles last longer, even on a cleaned "worn" record. I also wax records, particularly those with more wear. If you search the Forum for the topic, you will find far more expert advice than mine on the matter.

Robert

[Ho_Hum]

It hasn't been cleaned, it was my understanding that this dust was normal on the first 2 or 3 playings as the grooves are cleaned out but it has persisted into the 6th and the needle can no longer make it though the whole record without being wearing out when it was able to go through fine to begin with.

[HMVDevotee]

Ho-Hum,

Earlier I said, "and fiber needles last longer, even on a cleaned "worn" record," and I want to qualify that; sometimes cleaning a worn record provides some improvement. That said, it could be that the dirt first encountered when initially playing the record provided a sort of buffer between the fiber needle and the worn groove. But given the hardness of shellac, I find it unlikely that the fiber needle you are using is actually wearing the record faster than a harder steel needle would. I suspect the record is worn-out, and cleaning it and then treating it with ibota wax, will yield better results. I have a number of favorite recordings that have sufficient wear to destroy a fiber needle's point before a record is finished playing. Once cleaned and then waxed, I can play the majority of them without destroying the fiber needle's point.

Again, hoping some others will chime-in here and offer their advice.

R.

[Inigo]

Are you new to the use of bamboo needles? Which record exactly is giving you problems with bamboo?
Bamboo needles are not capable of playing certain types of records, as late forties' vinylite records, or any other record which is too worn...
You should try first with Victor records of the mid 20s to mid 30s... Also too loudly recorded 78s may give some trouble.
I've found the best ones to be soft music (piano, chamber music, violin, etc) pressed on good shellac records in good shape. Red label Victrola records of the 1925-1935 period work the best... others may require some training to play well...
Some colleague herein has used Pronto furniture waxing spray with success with worn records. I also used it in the past.

[pallophotophone]

There is one more extremely important consideration when it comes to thorn. fiber or bamboo needles. If the record has been played exclusively with steel needles, the grit that the record has that is part of the shellac will grind the steel point to the shape of the groove. This shellac and steel detritus will remain and grow with each playing, and remain in the groove unless the record is very well cleaned so as to remove the steel/shellac compound. No amount of playing will remove it- it will just be pushed around. The record needs to be cleaned such that the detritus is completely removed from the groove. Once that is done and if the record has not been ravaged by steel needles it should play as well as it ever will. I have used brushes with bristles that are smaller than the record groove , dishwashing soap and warm water successfully for years.
You will know that the record is as clean as you can make it when the record is dry. The groove walls will take on a irredescent appearance when viewed with the right lighting when looking across the groove. This takes a little practice. Of course if it is a sea of greyness, you probably will not see the iridescence.

Once you have cleaned the record for playing with thorn or fiber needles, never play it again with steel or you'll have to do the whole cleaning process again. Tungstone/ tungsten needles might be an exception to this rule.

[old country chemist]

What make and what period is the record from that you are playing with a fibrous needle? Vinylite and certain American gramophone records, such as Van Dyke, are not to be played with these needles. I think Pathé Perfect records in the brown material, also Aeolian Vocalion similarly in brown can be degraded by fibre needles, but I might be "shot down" with these statements. It takes some knowledge of the various types of 78 rpm records to know when not to use a thorn or bamboo needle. The frictional resistance of the needle upon the record material produces so much heat that the groove walls break down, and no amount of cleaning will repair them.Saying that, I have actually played a long playing record with a bamboo, as long as the weight on the needle was kept to a few grams!
In the 1920s, fibred records that had been played many times needed the groove walls cleaned out, and what "The Gramophone" magazine in the 1920s recommended was this-
Two parts white vinegar, and one part of "Three in one oil". Mixed in a bottle, and applied with a pad of velvet. Record played with bamboo, then wiped over with a clean velvet cloth after every playing. A very laborious treatment, and only mentioned here as of historical interest. Makes the record covers oily!

[A Ford 1]

My thoughts are that the old existing dust from steels has impregnated the fiber after playing part of the first grove turning the fiber into a lap (think of sand paper). The process of lapping a surface of metal by using a grinding compound between that surface and a softer surface that the grinding compound will impregnate. Note the shellac that the record is made of has grit in it. best to all Allen.

[Inigo]

Could it be the reason behind the advice to train the record first, playing it with fibre several times, each time with a fresh point? Could it be that this process cleans the dirt out from the groves, then the progress is noticed, and after a few times the record plays through flawlessly with bamboo?

[Ho_Hum]

I've been using some quieter Nat Shilkret victor records from the late 20s. I think I figured out the problem, the needles work fine the first time around but once cut one time they can no longer make it through the record, so I must be using the cutter wrong. The fresh ones can make it through no problem.