BERLINER QUESTION

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tictalk
Victor II
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BERLINER QUESTION

Post by tictalk »

I have a question for those of you educated on Berliner Phonographs, as I am very unknowledgeable on them. At the John Morley auction last week there were two Berliners , one a ratchet wind and one a trademark, both had small cone horns without a bell. My question.. is that a correct horn as they would have when they left the factory? There was some original advertising showing a ratchet wind with that type of horn, any thoughts or observations from your experience, on that horn on either one of the two machines. I have attached some pictures. Thanks Larry
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msherman
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by msherman »

As regards a ratchet wind, there are so few of those around that it's hard to say. Certainly the contemporary advertising pieces suggests that the small conical horn may have been available. As far as the Improved Gramophone (Trademark) model that followed it, I believe the early (1897 and 1898) models came with a funnel horn (5a) in the attachment. Later in 1898 a brass horn was offered (5b) and during 1899, I believe a black horn with a curved bell and gold stripe replaced the earlier funnel style (5d). The black horn with a brass bell (5c) was not offered on Improved Gramophones sold by National Gramophone, but was, I believe, available on Eldridge Johnson's and later VTMC's Model B, which was sold through early 1902. A number of Trademarks today are found with that later horn.

Hope this helps. And thank you to all who have responded so far to my survey on these machines. I have 55 machines on the census now, but could always use more as there remain a few gaps in the serial numbers. The more examples, the better will be the final study.
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Last edited by msherman on Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ripduf1
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by Ripduf1 »

The ratchet wind horn very well could have been original and I believe that it was an OEM offering back in the day. That machine looked pretty clean with some other issues.

I am convinced the Trademarks horn was a correct horn but it was missing the bell!

I do not know what they sold for so each of them could have well been worth the selling price (or not.)

Just some observations from the internet.

John
Horns rolled and straightened

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tictalk
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by tictalk »

Thanks for the responses thus far, The Trademark went for $2200 and the ratchet wind with the canvas carrying case went for $5500, not counting buyers premium.

KCW
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by KCW »

I have a Berliner question as well - can the Berliner records be played on victor machines? I wasn’t sure if it was an entirely different setup or not. Also, for how long were the Berliner phonographs and the Berliner records produced?

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Lucius1958
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by Lucius1958 »

KCW wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:58 pm I have a Berliner question as well - can the Berliner records be played on victor machines? I wasn’t sure if it was an entirely different setup or not. Also, for how long were the Berliner phonographs and the Berliner records produced?
In 1900, when a court decision forced Berliner to stop doing business in the US, Eldridge Johnson took over the company; a year later, he incorporated it as the Victor Talking Machine Company. So , yes, you can play Berliner records on Victor machines.

Berliner, meanwhile, moved production to Canada, and produced Gramophones and records under his own name for some years, in affiliation with Victor.

- Bill

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msherman
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Re: BERLINER QUESTION

Post by msherman »

Berliner's 7" records were first offered in the US in the Fall of 1894. Pressed in a slightly flexible hard rubber, they had fairly smooth surfaces but poor wearing qualities. In early 1896, he switched to a thicker and harder shellac compound, pressed first by the Duranoid company then later by the Burt Company. Due to legal entanglements, Berliner was forced to cease his U.S. operations in June, 1900. As pointed out earlier, he went on for some years up in Canada, and in the U.S., Eldridge Johnson assumed control of the former Berliner business. In the Fall of 1901, he incorporated as Victor Talking Machine Company.

While Berliner records were recorded on acid-etched zinc plates, and Johnson (Victor) pioneered disc recording in wax, the record are both lateral cut and can be played on most acoustic phonographs as well as more modern machines as well. The vertical cut disc was mainly the domain of Edison and Pathé, but Aeolion Vocalion and a few others sold vertical cut discs in the mid-1910s until the patents on the lateral process expired at the end of the 1910s. Those cannot be played on conventional disc phonographs. They require a sapphire ball stylus and a reproducer aligned for vertical playback. In the case of Edison, he used a permanent diamond-tipped reproducer. Hope this helps.

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