Another, is this American or Circassian Walnut Question

[Django]

There is currently a Victrola VV-XVI on the Facebook Marketplace. There is a debate regarding the wood. The seller listed it as Circassian, but the majority of respondents here believe that it is Figured American, (which can in my opinion anyway, sometimes be just as desirable). I believe that the machine is Circassian.

I play and collect guitars, mostly Martins. Brazilian Rosewood can range from straight grained, (actually desirable to some), to extremely figured. Koa and Maple can be curly, flamed, figured or very plane, (all from the same species. Quartered will have a different grain than straight, (guitars should always be quartered). The point being that Circassian can run from very plane to incredibly figured, and by 1915 or so, the most highly figured veneers would probably be used on the XVIII, and not the XVI, (just speculating).

Based on the picture of the top of the lid, I think that this example is Circassian. Whichever it is, I think that it would be spectacular cleaned up. In the end, both were premium woods, so as a collector that rarely sells anything, it is very desirable. I have seen some Circassian that I didn’t care for, and others that I thought were spectacular.

[Lucius1958]

If the seller had just included a photo of the notice, we'd be sure...

Most of the photos of Circassian walnut cases I've seen show a much higher contrast in the grain.

- Bill

[Django]

If the seller had just included a photo of the notice, we'd be sure...

Most of the photos of Circassian walnut cases I've seen show a much higher contrast in the grain.

- Bill

By 1915, (according to the serial number, this is a late 1915 machine), the XVI was no longer the top shelf Victrola, (the XVIII was). Because of that, I would suspect that the top grade of wood sets would go to the XVIII. According to the Victor Victrola, Victor didn’t “officially” offer Figured American Walnut until 1917. For these reasons, and the high figuring that still shows in these washed out pictures, I believe that this machine is Circassian. If it is American Walnut, it is probably more rare because American Walnut didn’t appear in Victor’s catalog until 2 years after this machine was built.

From Victor Victrola:
About Walnut Finishes: Circassian Walnut was the first walnut option to be made available to Victrola buyers in late 1908. This highly-figured, exotic wood was imported from Russia and parts of Northern Italy, as Circassian trees only grew in those regions. It was noted for its bold patterns and strong grain contrasts, and was prized in elegant households of that era. Until recently, it was believed that Circassian Walnut was the only form of Walnut that was available on Victrolas until 1917; however, a few examples of American Walnut Victrolas dating from as early as 1911 have been documented. American Walnut was a more conservative choice in appearance, without the strong (and sometimes "over-the-top") patterning that was found on many Circassian examples. American Walnut, however, was not officially listed as being available on Victrolas until 1917, so it is now assumed that very small "batches" of American Walnut machines were produced as special-order items from 1911 through 1916.

During World War One, the advent of German U-Boat activity began to take a serious toll on commercial shipping; boats coming across the Atlantic loaded with products (including Circassian Walnut timber) were sunk at an alarming rate. This forced Victor to gradually transition from Circassian to American Walnut for their high-end machines. American Walnut was produced in the USA, and was readily available, so it quickly became the "standard" walnut option by the late 'teens. Circassian Walnut finishes were still available up through 1924, but was being imported in very small quantities.

After 1919, American Walnut became available as a no-cost option on some of the less-expensive models, however the veneer quality was much lower than was used on the high-end flagship machines.

"Crotch" cuts. Walnut veneers which were cut from the junction between two large branches of the tree (crotch) were produced on a very limited basis. These veneers have highly unique figuring and are prized today.

[FellowCollector]

Most of the photos of Circassian walnut cases I've seen show a much higher contrast in the grain.

I agree. If you look at the pictures on the web page here: http://www.victor-victrola.com/walnt.htm from the Victor-Victrola site showing the various types of walnut for Victor Victrola cabinets one can see that the walnut in most of the pictures of the Victrola XVI that is for sale is likely not Circassian walnut which has remarkable dark and light grains in somewhat linear patterns versus swirled grain in more subdued colors of other walnut types. The lid on the XVI for sale does look very similar to Circassian, however. It's a mystery.

Doug

[Victor VII]

From what I hae seen---including other examples and other posts on this Forum, I would suggest the possibility that BOTH walnuts were used on this example (as well as the restored example which was discussed recently on this Forum). I think it is understood that that was Victor's practice. On the bright side, it always gives us something to talk about....

[JerryVan]

When I saw this on FB I immediately thought: American Walnut. That's still what I think.

[JeffR1]

Circassian Walnut always looked to me like there was heavy "spalting" going on.
Weather or not it was called Circassian because of that, I don't know.
But the very dark areas in contrast to the light would indicate as such.

Finding such a tree that has been attacked by this fungus that causes would be difficult to find and make the cabinet more expensive _ one would think.