Stuck Springs

Discussions on Talking Machines & Accessories
JerryVan
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JerryVan »

JeffR1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm
I could murder all these sellers.
Oh my!!! :shock:
JeffR1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm
NOT graphite ~ the particle size is too large.
Has it been done wrong for the past 120+ years?

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Orchorsol
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by Orchorsol »

JerryVan wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:45 pm
JeffR1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm
NOT graphite ~ the particle size is too large.
Has it been done wrong for the past 120+ years?
If using graphite, what grade, purity, particle size? Use any old powdered graphite? What was the original specification? I seriously doubt whether it's still available, as there are far less varied applications for powdered graphite nowadays. And vaseline/petroleum jelly just stores up repeat problems since, as so many other people have said, it will degrade over time, plus it has nothing like the lubricity of modern materials. Original isn't always best.

Yet - conversely, I never use that white silicone rubber tubing for soundbox gaskets - always natural rubber!
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

JeffR1
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JeffR1 »

The graphite in those small tubes you find at a lock smith maybe, if one could get it larger quantities.

What I have learned so far about grease, is that if it's too thick and especially sticky, it won't work very well as the "stiction" will lock up the springs when wound too far, but how much is too far.
In a tripe spring motor, one spring winds up the rest, so at least two of those springs will be wound to the top, and that's where the problem lies.

We need something in a slippery solid in the grease to prevent lock up or metal on metal contact with a sticky grease in between, and so far that's graphite or molybdenum.

I think if white moly grease with added graphite, that's certainly not sticky.

And 120 years of graphite use, that's probably all their was...
When did moly come along ?

Another interesting point are large clocks with large springs that are open to the air, some with spring barrels.
I don't remember any of them having grease in them, so why not make the bare steal very smooth by just adding silicon, and forget about the grease ?

About the rubber tubing, why don't you like the silicon stuff , what is it about the natural rubber that is better ?

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Orchorsol
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by Orchorsol »

JeffR1 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:41 pm About the rubber tubing, why don't you like the silicon stuff , what is it about the natural rubber that is better ?
I honestly don't know specifically Jeff (despite having been a rubber technologist in a former life!) other than that it sounds better to my ears, and I know other enthusiasts who find the same. Technically it must be some combination of hardness, resilience and compression set. Resilience in the context of rubber meaning rebound (bounce), nothing to do with ideas of robustness or resistance (the colloquial/general meaning). Compression set is the degree of (non-)recovery of the rubber after it has been in compression for a long time, an indirect indication of the long-term return force it continues to exert whilst compressed. It would take a lot of near-pointless research to work out how those properties and more relate to the job that gaskets do!
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

JerryVan
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JerryVan »

Orchorsol wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:11 pm
JerryVan wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:45 pm
JeffR1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:00 pm
NOT graphite ~ the particle size is too large.
Has it been done wrong for the past 120+ years?
If using graphite, what grade, purity, particle size? Use any old powdered graphite? What was the original specification? I seriously doubt whether it's still available, as there are far less varied applications for powdered graphite nowadays. And vaseline/petroleum jelly just stores up repeat problems since, as so many other people have said, it will degrade over time, plus it has nothing like the lubricity of modern materials. Original isn't always best.

Yet - conversely, I never use that white silicone rubber tubing for soundbox gaskets - always natural rubber!
I just use graphite grease, already made. I don't add graphite to grease. I can't give you any specs, (for which I apparently may be murdered), I can just tell you that it works great. If the grease appears a bit thick, I thin it by adding a bit of oil and mixing it in.

JeffR1
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Stuck Springs

Post by JeffR1 »

Still messing around with grease.
Tried using this combo of 2 to 1 and it's too thick, it winds up with some very mild thumping, but grabs occasionally when winding down, but doesn't do it all the time.
I'll try 3 to 1 next or even 4 to 1.

The grease is very similar to Vaseline, but is much more stable.
The graphite averages 5 to 7 microns, so quite small.

http://shop.chemicalstore.com/navigatio ... 4&id=GRPM5

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7944&hilit=adding+g ... +to+grease
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JeffR1
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JeffR1 »

So the above mix did not work that well, way to thick for 50/50 mix of graphite, while I suppose I could cut the mix with some synthetic oil and it would work, the problem with graphite is that it doesn't stay put, the pressure between the springs squeezes it out and moves it else where, hence the "caking" inside _ this is what I've discovered.
I even tried some gear oil with graphite as per someone's suggestion and that was even worse, it's not thick enough and the spring makes hard contact with itself, it thumps when winding up.

I went with these two, fully synthetic and I even contacted Redline, they are compatible to mix.
I initially used 50/50 _ no, that was like thick mucus, it oozed out all over and allowed metal on metal contact, so 3 to 1 or even 4 to 1, it doesn't take much oil to take the "stickiness" out of the grease.
You want just enough oil so it's not sticky, if it's too sticky, the spring coils will lock up, if it starts to run or not hold its form, you've added too much oil.
Take note that the Redline CV-2 grease may work well on it's own, of all the greases I've come across, it's quite slippery and the least "sticky" on its own, however in a motor with a weak spring, it may lock that spring.
The "Super Lube" above would also work just as well as the CV-2, but it's a little on the thick side, a compatible clear synthetic oil that would take away the stickiness would probably work quite well.
I would contact the people that make it and ask them.

While this may not be a problem with a single spring motor, you can't have this happening on a double or even worse, a triple spring motor.
One spring winds up the other in a multi spring motor, so the first spring that gets wound up will always get wound to the top, same with the second spring in a triple spring motor.
I used "Green Grease" and the first spring got stuck and stayed there as it wound down disengaging the centre shaft from the first spring.

I guess one doesn't have to wind their triple spring motors beyond the first spring, but what's the point of having a triple spring motor if one can't make use of all three springs.
One could also change the springs around and install the first spring in a fashion to which it gets wound last and install the last spring so it gets would first.
When I take my problematic motor apart, I'll lay them out so one can see _ I'll post it here.

About my triple spring motor, it was used extensively, the first spring is weak from decades of winding, this is evident of how many coils there are in the centre when it's relaxed outside the spring barrel, "it's tired"
A weak spring like this is very susceptible to being locked up by sticky heavy grease, like "Green Grease", probably why the motor was found sitting at a flea market.

Now; about synthetic grease, two big advantages of it is that it's stable and stays put, the carriers in them don't separate, probably for a very long time.
The other advantage is that the molecule's in them are all the same size, unlike Dino grease/oil, this means that under the pressure of the spring, it's more likely that it will stay put in-between the coils.
You don't have the larger molecules being squeezed out and leaving only the smaller ones left behind.

And anyone reading this and their eyes are rolling in their head, lets discuss this. :geek:
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JerryVan
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JerryVan »

I guess one doesn't have to wind their triple spring motors beyond the first spring, but what's the point of having a triple spring motor if one can't make use of all three springs.
One could also change the springs around and install the first spring in a fashion to which it gets wound last and install the last spring so it gets would first.


How is it that, regardless of lubricant recipe, you can envision a 3 spring motor, winding one spring at a time?

JeffR1
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JeffR1 »

JerryVan wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:56 pm I guess one doesn't have to wind their triple spring motors beyond the first spring, but what's the point of having a triple spring motor if one can't make use of all three springs.
One could also change the springs around and install the first spring in a fashion to which it gets wound last and install the last spring so it gets would first.


How is it that, regardless of lubricant recipe, you can envision a 3 spring motor, winding one spring at a time?
Perhaps not literally, but they are arranged in such a way that only one spring is attached to the crank through the centre shaft.
The others wind up as the first spring becomes tighter. So yeah, they essentially wind up at all the same time.
Depending upon the strength of the that spring the next spring will start to wind.
I could see where you may question my statement.

Putting three (or two) spring in a series, are not all going to wind in perfect succession, or unwind in a perfect order.
I guess that's my point, the stronger spring in the motor will have a tendency to disengage the centre of the weakest spring from the shaft.

That's why one needs a very slippery and correct grease so the shaft does not be come disengaged from any of the springs.

EDIT:
So after removing the rest of the springs from my triple spring motor and lining them up, it appears that all three springs have about the same tension, no one spring is stronger or weaker then the other.
However the Green Grease that was used is way to sticky, so much so that if I squeezed the centre coils together with my fingers, they would stay stuck together for a number of seconds before coming apart, no other grease that I've been experimenting with, did this.

The Green Grease would work well for the worm gear and turntable shaft though, but it's just too heavy and thick for the the Victor springs.
I think it was meant for huge wheel bearings in a transport truck, not for home use, even though it says it can be used for anything.

I don't understand how it works for the Dyslexic Genius ?

JeffR1
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Re: Stuck Springs

Post by JeffR1 »

Still working on what is best grease to use, here are a couple of videos.

The first one is what happens when too much of the wrong grease is used, in this case it's a "Green Grease" brand.
The springs do not wind smoothly because the coils are sticking and releasing causing what you see in the video.
A triple spring motor is especially susceptible to this as there are more springs to get stuck together _ this in turn makes the spring barrel not to turn smoothly when winding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af68Z4qauMc

In the second video, note; very little grease used here, but still too much where the coils are still sticking together.
One can see the coils winding up in an incorrect manor _ they stick and release is it's being wound up.
It makes an odd sound like squirrels in the attic.
To demonstrate this, I've removed the steel Victor cover and replaced it with a piece of nylon to show exactly what's happening when winding up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BHb254Vzb0

I took it apart again and wiped most of the grease off, leaving a very thin film, and that solved the problem, and still left just enough so it would unwind smoothly without thumping.

So far the most successful combination is the common Super Lube you find everywhere, see photo, a few drops of clear machine oil to thin it down just a little and 5 to 3% graphite that is at 5 microns.
This grease can be thinned down slightly and spread very thin, but still lubricate the coils while successfully preventing metal on metal contact under the tension of the spring.
Note that I have used only a couple of table spoons of grease when mixed with a few drops of oil.
So little grease was used, there was about ⅓ left over.

The 5 micron graphite is still too big, it will eventually get squeezed out of the coils and "cake".
I have some Molybdenum Disulfide on order from this place, and I will be using that.
(I've ordered the finest)

https://lowerfriction.com/dry-solid-lub ... s2-powder/

Super Lube also makes an O-ring grease that I'm going to play with as well.

The CV-2 grease did not work, it unwinds OK, but winding causes the "squirrel" noise in the video.
The SV-2 grease also did not work well because like the Green Grease brand, it is very stringy and too sticky.
It's designed to stick to bearings, but that trait makes it inappropriate for a gramophone motor.
Thinning it down with their ATF oil, did help, but not enough.

I must of taken that spring in and out over a dozen times by now, cleaning it off in a solvent bath and reapplying different grease combinations.

What I don't understand is I've tried what works for others with no success; maybe I'm just being too fussy.
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Last edited by JeffR1 on Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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