Triumph problem #2 tracking.

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AmberolaAndy
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by AmberolaAndy »

Ok here it is with a record put in. Absolutely no progress has been made. No matter how small I move it. It’s the same result as before. Just a constant repeating groove.

https://youtu.be/6-bnQg_7vuE

I think I’m going to do what is best for me, and just get another half-nut assembly with that bar with the screw adjustment just like my home has.
This is becoming a real task and a half…

Somehow that 2/4 minute gearing might be causing havoc with the feed screw too maybe that part is not adjusted right!

gramophoneshane
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by gramophoneshane »

I still think you're better off getting that top plate with the pressure adjustment screw.
If you look through a dozen or more examples through Google images, the ones I saw all have that plate with the same hallf nut arm as yours.

The earlier ones with no pressure plate appear to have the wider arm with 4 screws and 2 half nuts with the split in the middle.
Some examples of those also had a top pressure plate.

I really don't see the point of going through the motions of trial and error adjustments 36 times and hoping it will stay adjusted.
Once the pressure plate is on, you simply turn a screw until it's right, and it can be done in a matter of seconds without having to get behind the machine, loosening and tightening screws and twisting tubes and carriages etc.

And adding the simple adjustment plate is completely reversible if for some reason a future own wants to remove it.
This trial and error adjustment could take days to get right, if it doesn't get thrown at the wall out of frustration first lol

AmberolaAndy
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by AmberolaAndy »

gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:07 pm I still think you're better off getting that top plate with the pressure adjustment screw.
If you look through a dozen or more examples through Google images, the ones I saw all have that plate with the same hallf nut arm as yours.

The earlier ones with no pressure plate appear to have the wider arm with 4 screws and 2 half nuts with the split in the middle.
Some examples of those also had a top pressure plate.

I really don't see the point of going through the motions of trial and error adjustments 36 times and hoping it will stay adjusted.
Once the pressure plate is on, you simply turn a screw until it's right, and it can be done in a matter of seconds without having to get behind the machine, loosening and tightening screws and twisting tubes and carriages etc.

And adding the simple adjustment plate is completely reversible if for some reason a future own wants to remove it.
This trial and error adjustment could take days to get right, if it doesn't get thrown at the wall out of frustration first lol
I'll admit, I’m not the most patient person in the world when it comes with tedious things like this.(makes my eyes and head hurt) It’s just easier for me to spend for a part that works for me than Fiddling with something that’s not giving me any results. It worked for me when I installed the yoke and fixed that issue. I just do what works for me.

gramophoneshane
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by gramophoneshane »

AmberolaAndy wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:37 am

Somehow that 2/4 minute gearing might be causing havoc with the feed screw too maybe that part is not adjusted right!
I really don't think so.
That half nut is the only thing that actually drives the carriage across the record,, and the only other way I can think of that could effect it would be if the feed screw or rear carriage bar or front knife edge for the carriage, was bent or damaged and no longer parallel to each other.

Like Jerry suggested I think, you need to either remove or loosen the half nut from the arm, and be sure the half nut is sitting on the feed screw properly, so the threads are alligned and meshing with each other, with the surface of the arch in the half nut sitting on the feed screw.
You should be able to seat the nut and apply light pressure so it doesn't move, then tighten the half nut screws to hold it in place.

Also, when ever I've done half nut adjustments, to test it I start without any horn or record on the mandrel.
When you lower the carriage just watch out and it should move evenly across without any quick pauses or clicking sound from the half nut if it's jumping threads.
Once it appears to be right, put a cylinder on the machine and play the record without the horn. That way you can still hear if it skips and hear any other noises coming from the carriage drive chain.
Then when it seems to be working right, add the 14" horn and play a record again.
If it starts skipping again then you know its probably because the carriage is either dragging on or floating above the front knife edge, so the half nut needs further adjustment, unless the previous trial and error thing has thrown the carriage out of whack.
But once it's playing properly with the 14" horn, you can use the cygnet, and if that then starts skipping again, you'll know the cygnet horn is the cause and adjust it.

By testing it each time you add or adjust something like the half nut, then record then horn etc, it makes it much easier to find anything causing a problem

edisonplayer
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by edisonplayer »

I have a Triumph E with a Cygnet horn that's my go to cylinder player. And the other day after I did my dusting I was playing a 2 minute Edison, then I noticed the grooves were repeating.So I tinkered with the adjustment for the feedscrew.I left it be for a while, went back to play it. No problems.Once in a while the Triumph gets out of whack.edisonplayer

gramophoneshane
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by gramophoneshane »

AmberolaAndy wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:38 pm
gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:07 pm
I'll admit, I’m not the most patient person in the world when it comes with tedious things like this.(makes my eyes and head hurt)
I've been there a couple times myself Andy so I know exactly how you feel.

My advise is before you get to that point, just walk away. Go for a swim or bake a cake or something, and have another go the next day. Don't even think about it until then.

A couple times I've worked on a motor or something literally for hours and could not get it right no matter what I tried, and it just got me frustrated, upset and angry to the point where I've given up and .just left it scattered on the floor.

The next day after a good night sleep and putting it out of my mind, I've decided to try again, and within 15 mins it's all fixed and working again, and i really didn't do anything much different than the day before.
It sounds crazy but sometimes it's amazing what a short break and good night's sleep can do.

Now, I think you mentioned you've got a Home B with that adjustment plate?
If so, why not borrow it and try it on the Triumph.
That way you'll know it's going to fix the problem before buying another.
Then it can go back on the Home and adjusted again in a matter of minutes.
Might be worth thinking about anyway

The only potential problem that could possibly arise by adding that pressure plate that I can see, is the two screws that are holding that arm to the carriage. You might want to check they're long enough once the pressure plate is added,

AmberolaAndy
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by AmberolaAndy »

gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:41 pm
AmberolaAndy wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:38 pm
gramophoneshane wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:07 pm
I'll admit, I’m not the most patient person in the world when it comes with tedious things like this.(makes my eyes and head hurt)
I've been there a couple times myself Andy so I know exactly how you feel.

My advise is before you get to that point, just walk away. Go for a swim or bake a cake or something, and have another go the next day. Don't even think about it until then.

A couple times I've worked on a motor or something literally for hours and could not get it right no matter what I tried, and it just got me frustrated, upset and angry to the point where I've given up and .just left it scattered on the floor.

The next day after a good night sleep and putting it out of my mind, I've decided to try again, and within 15 mins it's all fixed and working again, and i really didn't do anything much different than the day before.
It sounds crazy but sometimes it's amazing what a short break and good night's sleep can do.

Now, I think you mentioned you've got a Home B with that adjustment plate?
If so, why not borrow it and try it on the Triumph.
That way you'll know it's going to fix the problem before buying another.
Then it can go back on the Home and adjusted again in a matter of minutes.
Might be worth thinking about anyway

The only potential problem that could possibly arise by adding that pressure plate that I can see, is the two screws that are holding that arm to the carriage. You might want to check they're long enough once the pressure plate is added,
The home pressure plate is a bit smaller than one from a triumph so I don’t think it could work. I’m just going to wait until I get paid on Friday and order another carriage and half nut and be done with it! I don’t have the temperament (a me problem) to keep on getting the same results no matter what I do. It’s either someone helps me in person, (unlikely due to nobody but me on here from my area) or just slip on another carriage and halfnut and be done with it! Gotta know when to fold em’!

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FellowCollector
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by FellowCollector »

This is an incredibly simple problem to fix with what you have but it sounds like you are determined to get replacement parts and so I wish you well.

In another thread I was able to tell you that the Triumph governor yoke that you were trying to use was a badly made replacement and it turned out that it was indeed a bad replacement and an original replacement part fixed the problem.

In this instance, again, presuming the half nut itself is in good operating condition as I mentioned earlier, then I suggested (along with Jerry Van) adjusting the carriage tube which should take about 5 minutes to adjust the half nut bar to its correct setting and you'd be done. I've done this procedure many times in the past on my own Edison Triumphs and Homes without the later "fine tuning" adjustment bar and it takes literally 5 minutes or less.

But, honestly, it's incredibly frustrating for any seasoned phonograph collector who is very familiar with fixing a specific phonograph problem to try to help through text commentary and pictures explaining possible repairs to their specific phonograph problem if the person being helped is not at all familiar with doing the suggested fix. It serves no one when the communication and pictures are fruitless as in this instance. I truly enjoy trying to help anyone out with their phonograph problems if I'm able to, but I must try to remember to not become involved as more often than not all of the commentary text and pictures often ends up in an exercise of frustration on both ends.

And regarding a comment above regarding the half nut being the only thing that drives the carriage across the record, this is not entirely correct. With a 2 minute ONLY Edison phonograph this statement is true since the feed screw is directly fixed on the mandrel shaft. But with a 2/4 minute Edison Home or Triumph cylinder phonograph as you discussed here the planetary gear assembly in conjunction with the clutch is rotating the feed screw AROUND the mandrel shaft. And if the planetary gear / clutch assembly are not adjusted properly the carriage can go nowhere or can create other intermittent carriage movement issues since the feed screw rotation is directed by this assembly.

Anyway, I wish the best of luck with figuring this out.

Doug

AmberolaAndy
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by AmberolaAndy »

FellowCollector wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:57 pm This is an incredibly simple problem to fix with what you have but it sounds like you are determined to get replacement parts and so I wish you well.

In another thread I was able to tell you that the Triumph governor yoke that you were trying to use was a badly made replacement and it turned out that it was indeed a bad replacement and an original replacement part fixed the problem.

In this instance, again, presuming the half nut itself is in good operating condition as I mentioned earlier, then I suggested (along with Jerry Van) adjusting the carriage tube which should take about 5 minutes to adjust the half nut bar to its correct setting and you'd be done. I've done this procedure many times in the past on my own Edison Triumphs and Homes without the later "fine tuning" adjustment bar and it takes literally 5 minutes or less.

But, honestly, it's incredibly frustrating for any seasoned phonograph collector who is very familiar with fixing a specific phonograph problem to try to help through text commentary and pictures explaining possible repairs to their specific phonograph problem if the person being helped is not at all familiar with doing the suggested fix. It serves no one when the communication and pictures are fruitless as in this instance. I truly enjoy trying to help anyone out with their phonograph problems if I'm able to, but I must try to remember to not become involved as more often than not all of the commentary text and pictures often ends up in an exercise of frustration on both ends.

And regarding a comment above regarding the half nut being the only thing that drives the carriage across the record, this is not entirely correct. With a 2 minute ONLY Edison phonograph this statement is true since the feed screw is directly fixed on the mandrel shaft. But with a 2/4 minute Edison Home or Triumph cylinder phonograph as you discussed here the planetary gear assembly in conjunction with the clutch is rotating the feed screw AROUND the mandrel shaft. And if the planetary gear / clutch assembly are not adjusted properly the carriage can go nowhere or can create other intermittent carriage movement issues since the feed screw rotation is directed by this assembly.

Anyway, I wish the best of luck with figuring this out.

Doug
I think my half nut is just not in good operating condition. But as it stands no matter how much I unscrew the screw in the back and slightly move the bar up or down it’s the same song and dance, just no advancement whatsoever. Like I said, I can be a bit hard headed at times and tend to get stressed easily. And there are things I’m able to do to an extent. I was able to do it with my Home Model B a couple years ago because that bar had the adjustment screw on top of the half nut. So I’ll go for what worked in the past for me. Because that’s what makes sense in my head!

I’ve noticed the most problematic machines to me are former 2 minute only Model B machines that had their gearing changed to 2/4 minute.
Last edited by AmberolaAndy on Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JerryVan
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Re: Triumph problem #2 tracking.

Post by JerryVan »

Best of luck to you with your new parts. Just so you're aware, they'll need to be adjusted and fitted properly too, using pretty much all the same advice and techniques that you've been given. Also, your "new" half nut will most likely be a used one. I'm not aware of anyone making brand new ones. They need to be installed a certain way. It's possible to install them backwards. Let us know how it works out for you.

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