Help with a Columbia BI Sterling Disc Graphophone

[CarterP935]

So I recently acquired a Columbia BI Disc Graphophone that seems to have a temper. I have replaced the fiber gear and the gear that it slips onto, I fixed the governor and I have greased/oiled everything that needs to be. Yet, it just does not want to run when the lid is down. If I have the turn table up at an angle it will run like it should. I just am drawing blanks here as I have no idea what to do at this point. It seems to have been serviced in the recent past, yet they couldn't solve the problem. The drive gear that turns the shiny brass turntable gear is loose, so maybe that is the problem? Also, the washers on the turntable drive shaft are not of my doing. That is how I found the machine, so maybe if I could find the proper spacer as well?

I just have no idea what to do at this point and I do not want to get frustrated working on such a beautiful machine.

[JerryVan]

The washer(?) at the bottom of the turntable spindle shaft does not belong there. The pin at the bottom of the spindle shaft is meant to rest on a small ball bearing that sits down, inside of the motor frame. That makes a frictionless thrust bearing for the spindle. After you remove the washer, and add the bearing, it may be necessary to adjust the hieght of the bevel gear to get it meshing correctly.

Also, remove all of those washers from the top end of the shaft, get a proper setscrew back in the collar that's sitting beneath the washers, and set the location of the collar to allow just a bit of clearance between it and the motor frame.

See, no washers and a gap under the end of the spindle shaft, due to its being supported by the ball bearing beneath it. The washer at the bottom of your shaft is causing lots of drag.

[CarterP935]

That was not a washer at the base of the turntable shaft, but a small amount of grease that had slipped between the motor housing and the bottom of the spindle shaft. Even after removing that blob and the washers on top of the shaft, it still only runs when the case is in the open position. It will not run at all when closed. It is like the changing of gravity in the mechanism is causing it to bind up somewhere. The only thing that has play in it is the spindle shaft itself in that bearing hole and the gear that drives the spindle gear that wiggles on its shaft approximately 1/8th of an inch to either side.

[outune]

Hi- As Jerry says, there should be no washers at the top or the bottom of that shaft. Enlarging your picture a bit, I can see that someone has put circlips at the top of the shaft. (spring clips with the two holes for the install tool) They don't belong there at all.. Just below them is the collar Jerry referenced that is missing it's set screw. That collar keeps the shaft from rising up out of the bottom of the casting where the ball bearing should be. You'll need to find the right size set screw and position that collar just below the motor casting-- maybe 1/32". just enough that it clears the casting.
Overall, I think it will be a simple fix. If the ball bearing is missing (good possibility), I'm sure someone here can help you find one or at least give you the dimensions of the bearing you would look for.

The BI, in my opinion, was one of Columbias best machines and a true workhorse when all is adjusted well.

Brad Abell

[Lucius1958]

Is there a ball bearing under the spindle shaft?

Is the play in the shaft vertical, or side to side? The latter might cause meshing problems, as well as the play in the large bevel gear.

It's been quite a few years since I worked on my BI; the worst problem I recall was adjusting the spindle gear correctly, so it didn't come loose and send the rest of the motor out of control...

- Bill

[CarterP935]

Is there a ball bearing under the spindle shaft?

Is the play in the shaft vertical, or side to side? The latter might cause meshing problems, as well as the play in the large bevel gear.

It's been quite a few years since I worked on my BI; the worst problem I recall was adjusting the spindle gear correctly, so it didn't come loose and send the rest of the motor out of control...

- Bill

As far as I can tell, there is something that goes under the shaft. A bearing? Now that I have no idea if it is still there.

The play is side to side in the hole the shaft goes into. I know the vertical play will be fixed by setting the gear and the set screw in that collar in the correct position.

And I have never had a repair this much on a machine before. My last Columbia machine I only had to replace the fiber gear, so this is a big change for me as a younger collector.

-Carter

[CarterP935]

Hi- As Jerry says, there should be no washers at the top or the bottom of that shaft. Enlarging your picture a bit, I can see that someone has put circlips at the top of the shaft. (spring clips with the two holes for the install tool) They don't belong there at all.. Just below them is the collar Jerry referenced that is missing it's set screw. That collar keeps the shaft from rising up out of the bottom of the casting where the ball bearing should be. You'll need to find the right size set screw and position that collar just below the motor casting-- maybe 1/32". just enough that it clears the casting.
Overall, I think it will be a simple fix. If the ball bearing is missing (good possibility), I'm sure someone here can help you find one or at least give you the dimensions of the bearing you would look for.

The BI, in my opinion, was one of Columbias best machines and a true workhorse when all is adjusted well.

Brad Abell

I do thank you for your assistance, but as I had shown in the above photos and post in response to Jerry's advice, I removed the circlips and the blob of grease below the shaft that looked like a washer. I will be able to find a set screw tonight or tomorrow most likely out of a bunch of spares I have. But even after removing those problem pieces, it seems to not run when the lid to the case is closed. I have no idea about the whole ball bearing thing and how I would even go about replacing it.

[outune]

Got it-- Glad you removed those clips-- To get at that ball bearing, you would loosen the set screw on the brass spindle gear (top collar too, but you don't have a screw yet), then slide the shaft through the top of the motor. Then you'll be able to look in the bottom hole to see if the bearing is there. The pic you just posted makes me think the bearing is in place. It look like you have a little clearance at the bottom of the shaft-
BUT- The picture makes it look like the fiber gear is not pressed tightly against the brass spindle gear. It should mate up tightly to the brass gear. Also-- I can't tell from the pics, but make sure the fiber gear is on correctly. the teeth slant a bit- Could it possiibly be backward?
I think you have the problem pinpointed. Once the shaft/gear/bearing issue is resolved, you'll be playing ragtime!

Brad Abell

[VanEpsFan1914]

The nice thing about ball bearings back then is that many are going to be standard sizes. A good bicycle shop should have one, and I bet they can set you up with one at a cost of a few cents.

The bearing should give it a little more willingness to spin. It is a beautiful phonograph and I think you're just about to have it working.

[CarterP935]

Got it-- Glad you removed those clips-- To get at that ball bearing, you would loosen the set screw on the brass spindle gear (top collar too, but you don't have a screw yet), then slide the shaft through the top of the motor. Then you'll be able to look in the bottom hole to see if the bearing is there. The pic you just posted makes me think the bearing is in place. It look like you have a little clearance at the bottom of the shaft-
BUT- The picture makes it look like the fiber gear is not pressed tightly against the brass spindle gear. It should mate up tightly to the brass gear. Also-- I can't tell from the pics, but make sure the fiber gear is on correctly. the teeth slant a bit- Could it possiibly be backward?
I think you have the problem pinpointed. Once the shaft/gear/bearing issue is resolved, you'll be playing ragtime!

Brad Abell

I presume the image included is the bearing? It looks a little off center, but nothing crazy. I do have the gear pressed as close as possibly can be to the teeth of the brass gear it is upon. I fear if I try to force it further, it would end up breaking. And the fiber gear is positioned so the teeth are pointed toward and are pushing the governor with the tips of the teeth. That is how my other machine is set up and it works just fine. Like I said to begin with, it will run, but only when it is at an angle, not when it is level as it would be normally operating.

Oh! And I managed to find a set screw that fits that collar, so that is one thing resolved.