Which tone arm ?

[poodling around]

In my view there is a subtle difference between a phonograph lover and a phonograph exhibitionist. Definitely I am of the former type.

In my opinion, what you have said here is profound and absolutely correct.

I would say however that you could have omitted the word 'subtle'.

[Sherazhyder]

Thanks for expressing

[Sherazhyder]

In my view there is a subtle difference between a phonograph lover and a phonograph exhibitionist. Definitely I am of the former type.

In my opinion, what you have said here is profound and absolutely correct.

I would say however that you could have omitted the word 'subtle'.

I stand corrected, thanks

[CarlosV]

The approximate distance from center of spindle to center of tonearm hole is about 6/½ inches. Here are the pics with actual measurements. Please advise. Thanks

Sherazhyder, I measured the distance spindle-center of tonearm in some of the the HMVs I have: the only one that matches 6.5 inches is the model 29, an external horn ¨colonial¨ machine with a 10 inch turntable that utilizes the same arm as the HMV nursery model. Unfortunately, this arm is quite difficult to find, it was only used on a couple of models that did not sell well and are very rare today. The other machines I measured, the model 113 (table top) is 9.5 inch, and the HMV 101 (portable) it is 8.5 inch.

It is curious to see such big and powerful motor with four springs coupled to a 10 inch turntable, a short arm and a small horn. I wonder what model carried such odd combination, likely to be a colonial model, that in some cases matched parts that were produced in different periods. In any case, it is a worthwhile effort to bring such machine back to life. The biggest challenge is to find a reference for the case: catalogues, advertisements and such are almost non existent when concerning colonial models.

You may keep a look on eBay or other sites for non-HMV arms with the same 6.5 inch length, and then adapt it to the wood base.

[OrthoFan]

Here's a list of (most of) the models the Victor Talking Machine Co. produced --

http://www.victor-victrola.com/new_page_2.htm

(Site's home page -- http://www.victor-victrola.com )

Did all of the components you have, the motor-board, the motor and the caste-iron portion of the internal horn come from the same model Victrola?

The motor-board is pre-Orthophonic (pre-1925) since it has a shellac-based finish (lacquer was used on most of the Orthophonic era Victrolas). The caste-iron portion of the horn is also pre-Orthophonic. The four spring (double barrel) motor would have been fitted into one of the more deluxe cabinet or console models. (The early deluxe models were fitted with three-spring motors.) The medium-size models used double spring motors, while the smaller/table models had single springs.

The plating of the components would have been nickel plated to match the motor-board pull knob, which implies a medium size model. The more deluxe models equipped with the powerful four spring motor normally had gold (later bronze or other) plated components.

I just culled over "Look for the Dog," and other sources, to see if any pre-1925 models had four-spring motors and nickel plated hardware, but couldn't find anything.

OrthoFan

[gramophoneshane]

• • Production of a fake object involves criminality. Here I am making the full disclosure about my intent so mine is not going to be fake. It will definitely be a restoration.
    
    I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree there.
    I'm not sure why you think fake objects involve criminality because it is simply not true
    Perhaps you've heard of fake eyelashes?
    No criminality there. Same story with a fake tan. Some businesses install fake security cameras which in no way implies criminality regarding the store owner or person who installed them.
    Perhaps there's some sort of language barrier at play here and you've misunderstood what I'm saying and the meanings of various words?
    Your intentions are to reproduce a brand new entire cabinet (hence reproduction) and put your original parts in it, so it's perhaps 15-20% original and the rest is brand new reproduction.
    To use what you have in a restoration would involve finding an empty or damaged ORIGINAL cabinet, adding your parts and making any repairs,then returning the now completed machine back to good usible condition.
    As I said earlier, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you're doing, provided it can be identified as a non-genuine example a little better than merely disclosure on the internet.
    Perhaps once your data plate is obtained, you could add the letters NC after the numbers for example, so if someone looks at the data plate they'll question its meaning and look at everything a little closer, and perhaps add the cabinet maker and date permanently to the inside of the cabinet where it's not casually seen but can serve as a record of its history.
    
    Although you do not say so, the rebuilt Notre Dame on your test stone (the aid of reproduction elements) should be seen as ‘fake’.
    
    I respectfully refer to a decently and earnestly rebuilt phonograph as a restoration with reproduced elements.
    It's actually a reproduction with some original parts
    In my case, it’s only the cabinet which is going to be rebuilt but the machines and it’s components will be original. Again, 80% of the entire quite substantial cabinet machine but the motor and other sound components will be original
    Yes it may not fetch as good a price as the one with original cabinet. Actually there's a chance it may fetch equal or more being a hand crafted one off new reproduction cabinet unlike the mass produced production line original cabinets. Should I throw away the motor and all its other parts to dustbin instead of giving them a body ?
    I don't think I or anybody else suggested they should be discarded, especially when they could easily be used to help Save an original gramophone from becoming landfill and making it sing once more
    
    I have felt that appreciation of phonographs has become the domain of antique evaluators whose judgement about every object ultimately culminates on its monetary value. How unfortunate that historical object have come to be seen in terms of volume of money one is willing to part with to possess them. In my views these objects are about collective happiness and thus a shared property. The very event of physically possessing them is a mere matter of chance and opportunity. Otherwise he/she has not added value to them except honestly taking care of them.!Ah, ok
    
    Trust me there are individuals like me who are in love with these machines, who are more concerned about conservation of such objects without undermining their functionality and aesthetics.Yes, and I'm one of them, which is precisely why conservation and restoration of originals is so important to me, as is the identification of fakes so in 50 yrs time there's less chance it can be passed off as something it's not to an unsuspecting inexperienced collector

[Sherazhyder]

My responses appear in parentheses against comments observations of OrthoFan:

Here's a list of (most of) the models the Victor Talking Machine Co. produced --

http://www.victor-victrola.com/new_page_2.htm ( thanks for referring me to this very important piece of information).

(Site's home page -- http://www.victor-victrola.com )

Did all of the components you have, the motor-board, the motor and the caste-iron portion of the internal horn come from the same model Victrola? ( I have no idea)

The motor-board is pre-Orthophonic (pre-1925) since it has a shellac-based finish…The caste-iron portion of the horn is also pre-Orthophonic. The four spring (double barrel) motor would have been fitted into one of the more deluxe cabinet or console models ( Is the four spring motor also a pre-orthophonic object? )

The plating of the components would have been nickel plated to match the motor-board pull knob, which implies a medium size model. The more deluxe models equipped with the powerful four spring motor normally had gold (later bronze or other) plated components ( very important piece of information. so I should have all the metal stuff gold or brass plated. Good idea)

I just culled over "Look for the Dog," and other sources, to see if any pre-1925 models had four-spring motors and nickel plated hardware, but couldn't find anything (It might mean that metal objects have either been replaced or nickel plated after they lost their lustre) .

Thanks for your detailed analysis and wonderful conclusions.

Best regards
Sheraz

[Inigo]

The no32 and no34 motors, also called Burton motors (probably because that Burton was the inventor, developer or patentee, whatever) appeared in 1921 advertised as new style improved motors, to be fitted since then in all medium and big machines, bit HMV and Victor. Please correct me if I'm wrong... Then, they are undoubtedly pre-orthophonic. They were used in many models.