Fellow Collectors Taking Advantage Of Deceased Members Families

[Steve]

Do you know any really good knowledgeable auctioneers who are currently operating and conducting regular sales?

Yes. SAS. https://www.specialauction services.com/Departments/Music-and-Entertainment

I should have added, "apart from SAS?", as I presume most UK collectors interested in mechanical music will already know about the association forum member, "Oedipus", has with that particular organisation, hence why gramophones are generally well described and accurately presented! SAS is the exception rather than the rule!

[Phonofolks]

The issue we need to factor in is it's a buyers market and not a sellers market. With the exception of those rare phonographs the prices are no longer what they used to be. If you bought in the 80s and 90s when it was a sellers market where dealers were increasing their prices on Victor horned phonographs, Edison Homes and Standards by 10 - 20 percent every six months at the phonograph show, you will take the biggest hit. EBay brought the prices down to realistic levels for buyers in the late 90s into the 2000's, but the other downside we must contend with is that the younger generations don't have much interest in the hobby. Not easy when selling a collection.

[JerryVan]

...we must contend with is that the younger generations don't have much interest in the hobby.

Nor do they have much in the way of discretionary funds, even if they are interested.

[columbia1spring]

I think at the beginning of our collecting that we’ve all been taken advantage of. And as of today no badly how I need a part, there are people I will not deal with. I’m getting older and educating your family, wife kids, grandchildren as to there value and who to avoid is a great way to stop them. One more rant. Untested = Broken!

[epigramophone]

The best precaution a collector can take to avoid their family being taken advantage of is to ensure that their collection is well documented, and that the family knows where the items are kept.

My machines are listed on a spreadsheet created by my son. This enables me to add new acquisitions and delete machines which have been sold. For each machine I have entered my estimate of market value. Values fluctuate, but this will at least give my descendants a rough guide.

My records are all listed by genre and in artist order. Those of particular monetary value or interest are highlighted.

Think of those who will inherit your collection. If you have not documented it, do it soon while you still can.

[Jacobean]

I rarely post here, but have to 'chime-in' on this topic.

Over the years, I have bought-out scores of estates and collections. In most cases, the owners (heirs) just want to be rid of the machines, and are not interested in getting top-dollar for items which are of no interest to them. My established process is to clearly tell the owners that any machines I buy are being purchased for resale, and that I won't be able to pay retail prices. I always offer help to list their items online or to refer them to auction services, but in 80% of the cases, they just want to clear-out the collection ASAP and not wait for auctions or mess with Ebay listings. Having turned down the clearly-stated opportunity to possibly sell the items for more money, I have no further obligation to contact anyone else to possibly outbid me. So it's cash on the barrelhead, and off I go...

Once the transaction is completed, there will inevitably be certain collectors who will find out about what was sold, and approach the sellers to state "I would have paid you twice as much" (possibly true, but probably not), making them (and other collectors) feel cheated. Then begins the undercurrent of complaints. Yes, I bought the items for bargain prices. No, the sellers were not cheated out of anything.

I have helped many sellers get top dollar for rare items by connecting them with other buyers or auction houses. I have even posted Ebay listings on their behalf when they were unable to do so themselves (e.g. elderly folks). But most of the time, they just want the machines 'gone' and are happy to be paid promptly...that is, until the trickle of other collectors come out of the woodwork to grouse and provide them with a guilt-trip for selling so cheaply.

I want to make it clear that this relates to only a very small group of collectors who feel that every estate or collection sale must be publicly announced, and any collector/buyer should consider that to be an ethical responsibility. That decision is solely up to the seller, not to the buyer. My only obligation is to be fair, and offer them a clear choice of alternative methods of selling before I pay them and pack-up my van.

I sleep soundly every night.

Paul Edie

[Phonofolks]

...we must contend with is that the younger generations don't have much interest in the hobby.

Nor do they have much in the way of discretionary funds, even if they are interested.

Yes, and any funds the younger generations do have will be spent on gaming.

[phonogal]

I guess i have a different take on this then most. I have my collection because I enjoy it. Neither of my children (now both deceased) were interested in my collection. My grandchildren have shown little interest in phonographs or music boxes thus far but that could change at some point. Yes, I have a considerable amount of time and money invested in my collection but I got a considerable amount of enjoyment hunting for, repairing and listening to them. I did not buy them as an investment. I do hope someone in the future will get as much enjoyment out of the machines as I do. If my grandchildren are concerned with getting as much as they can for each item, they will do some research into their value before they sell them. If they just want to sell them to get rid of them, then someone else, maybe a new collector, will get a real bargain. Either way, my collector days will be over and I will be on to bigger and better things. Life's short. Be happy!

[Steve]

I guess i have a different take on this then most. I have my collection because I enjoy it. Neither of my children (now both deceased) were interested in my collection. My grandchildren have shown little interest in phonographs or music boxes thus far but that could change at some point. Yes, I have a considerable amount of time and money invested in my collection but I got a considerable amount of enjoyment hunting for, repairing and listening to them. I did not buy them as an investment. I do hope someone in the future will get as much enjoyment out of the machines as I do. If my grandchildren are concerned with getting as much as they can for each item, they will do some research into their value before they sell them. If they just want to sell them to get rid of them, then someone else, maybe a new collector, will get a real bargain. Either way, my collector days will be over and I will be on to bigger and better things. Life's short. Be happy!

I couldn't agree more!

[Victrola20]

Paul
i fully understand what you are saying and generally agree. You are known as a reputable honest dealer and from my experience and knowledge most all of the known phonograph dealers are also reputable, ethical and sensitive to family members, while being honest about being dealers and their intent to resell.
All of us have experienced a sold sign initiating the comment “i would have bought that for that price “. knowing that they would never have to put up as it was sold
Your description of how you approach the heirs of a collector being honest and fair are exactly how it should be done. First looking out for the family/heirs to make sure they are protected from persons just wanting to line their pockets , without consideration of the families needs or disclosing their intent. Giving the heirs the honest and straight skinny on value and explaining the difficulty and options in disposing of the collection , lets them make up their minds with understanding and knowledge , so they can decide as to how and what is important to them in disposing of the inherited collection While you have apprently experienced that more often than not, they just want it gone , that is great and everybody wins when the whole collection is bought
Apparently the collectors out this way are generally poorer as the families often need the funds from the collection to pay off bills and expenses so they are not very often wanting to just get rid of the collection at any price
I believe that this discussion was not intended to be about the honest and open phonograph dealer but about the dealer dressed In friendly collectors clothes who befriends the family and ends up cherry picking the collection at prices that are yes realistically half or a third or more of the current wholesale price Yes other collectors would have for sure paid those prices if given a chance. This is where the ethical question comes in.
Do we as experienced collectors have an ethical responsibility to inform the heirs of our fallen collector that we are buying the best machines at dirt cheap prices and leaving them with the low end unsaleable machines? While some pretend to be only collectors often they are really dealers in collectors clothes, do we then have the ethical responsibility to inform them of our intent to resell? We can of course just tell them if they want to see how much their machines are really worth, that they may want to keep checking the forum , craigs list , face book etc as soon as next week , as they might see them for sale at 2 , 3 or even 4 times what they were paid.
I have heard from quite a few collectors who believe that ethically and as real friends to the collector that has passed that we have an ethical responsibility to protect the family/heirs. By honestly helping and informing the family of their challenges and options they can decide what is important to them. The heirs can then make decisions that meet their emotional and financial needs and we can sleep well knowing we have done the right thing for the right reasons
If we are talking about dispersal of our own collections because of an untimrly death i would think we all would want the same thing for our heirs. Yes we will have enjoyed finding collecting and restoring them, but we will be gone and cant do anything about what happens to the collection . But I am sure that none of us will want our familys to be taken advantage of by friendly collectors (dealers in disguise ) who make the decisions for them with bad information and greedy actions of cherry picking at dirt cheap prices and leaving them with the low end unsaleable items
If my family has been given honest information and knows the collection is worth a minimum of say 100k and they decide to sell it for 10k or donate it to the club that is their decidion and i am ok and happy with that. They made the decision and not someone else taking advantage of their lack of knowledge to receive a profit
The issue at hand as i see it is whether we as experienced collects recognize an ethical obligation when helping heirs dispose of a friends collection or our friends helping our own families dispose of our collections ?
I hope for the sack of the hobbie that we all want and have a goal to be ethical and be able to sleep at night. It is my opinion that this hobbly should be about helping each other and not about , as some have moved to , how much we can make buying and selling
I know this issue may be complex to some and not simply black and white. But i think it is something we need to face.
I am off of my high horse now sorry