How to determine the proper playback speed.

[bart1927]

I know there are some general guidelines for the playback speed of 78´s.
-most electrically recorded 78´s: 78.26 rpm
-Edison laterals: 78.8 rpm
-several UK Columbia´s: 80 rpm (at least, according to the label)
-acoustic Victors (batwing): 76.59 rpm
-really early acoustic Victors: 71.29
-Edison DD: 80 rpm
-acoustic Columbia`s: 80 rpm
-acoustic Brunswick´s: 80 rpm

Does somebody have any additions to complete this list?

And now from theory to the real world. I noticed that some acoustic Columbia´s sound way too fast at 80 rpm, and the same goes for Brunswicks. I don´t have perfect pitch, but at 80 rpm some singers start to sound a little too high. Also, I have my doubts about those UK Columbias that say "speed 80". In several cases they clearly play too fast at 80! And what about acoustic HMV´s? Are they also supposed to be played at 76.59 rpm, just as their American sisters?

Some time ago I brought up the same subject and was advised to start at 75 rpm and gradually speed it up until it sounded natural. But that´s a little more difficult than it sounds. Like I said, I don´t have perfect pitch, and using the voice of the singer as a benchmark only works for me if it is a singer whose voice I´m very familiar with (for instance, Irving Kaufman). Also, what if there is no vocal refrain?

I once read an article about the use of a keyboard to determine the correct speed. I had some piano lessons as a kid, so I can play a little, but I found out a record can play too fast or too slow and still not be off-key! It just plays a full tone higher or lower. I thought I found a solution when I discovered old sheet music. I could just play along with the record until it sounded right. But now I´m beginning to doubt the validity of this method. For instance, I played "Three O-Clock In The Morning". It goes like this. (g c b c e g d c) (it´s three o clock in the morning). But for the orchestra on my record to play exactly THOSE notes I had to lower the plackback speed to 72 rpm, which was way too slow, obviously.

Could it be that for the sheet music sold in stores they changed the notes a little, maybe to simplify it? (Less "sharps" and "flats"). Or is it the other way around? Did the orchestra´s use very different arangements? I compared Vaugh DeLeath's version of "Sleep Kentucky Babe" with my sheet music, and hers was much higher! Maybe to acommodate the range of her voice?

Any thoughts or comments on this subject are really appreciated. Even if you say "stop being so OCD about it, just play those records and enjoy them. It´s not classical music, who cares about pitch? "

[richardh]

Bart,

there seems to be no rhyme or reason to playback speeds no matter what the label says! In my experience all labels are as bad as each other...even HMV...however I have found that by the mid 30's most companies seemed to have got their houses in order and were more or less 78rpm. Before that it really is a case of guess work or perhaps some books give you an indication of recording speed? I thought (and perhaps I am imagining it!) Sean quoted from a book on the recording speed for a specific title. It was a while ago....in another place, now gone, so I can't go back and check.

I am lucky as I have perfect pitch and always do it by ear. I start at 78rpm and work my way both up and down to find what I think is the correct speed. I have even posted things on message boards soliciting opinion on some recordings.

The Transfer I did of my "The Planets" Suite (conducted by the composer Holst) which were on the Columbia label sounded rediculous at the stated 80rpm...but I did it by ear...and memory as I didn' have a modern recording to hand to reference it to...but certain notes I could remember and so listened out for them on the acoustic recording. I posted the end result and the general opinion was that it was about right. When I compared it (later) to a modern recording the speed and tempo were spot on.

However I do struggle a bit more with songs / music I am not familiar with...there I just go with the flow and just seem what seems to be most natural. Its an inaxact science....but you can always post things here for an opinion and we can give you feed back. I remember in the past there has been discussion about using music scores as a reference...but you never know if the key of the recording has been transposed! That is all too technical for me so I steer clear of that approach..but I guess if you play a musical instrument then that is a good way to go.

THis ramble probably doesnt help much...but its just the way I approach things. I will be interested to see how others tackle this problem.

RJ

[OrthoSean]

Actually Richard, you make a lot of sense!

One thing I was told a long time ago by a transfer engineer was to always trust your ear above anything else! I've found that not looking at the speed, but rather slowing down or speeding up until something sounds right to me and then taking a look at the readout, it usually falls at a "standard" (haha) speed. A few nights back I played several early DG sides of Destinn and was amazed at the slow speeds, between 70.59 and 72 RPM was the fastest of the four discs. The Ave Maria almost sounded too fast at 70.59 until I hauled out my pitch pipe and found it to be right on key (B flat? - I pitched it the same way the Patti record of this piece is played). The prior owner of all these discs I've been hauling out, cleaning and playing lately was apparently of the "perfect pitch" class (something I've been told I have too, but I can't really say that for certain). He wrote the playing speed of all his records in wax pencil in the inner margins of each disc. Amazing to see even 10-15 RPM difference in speeds even in different sides. Remember, some early "doubled" issues issued sides from totally different recording sessions, so this is entirely possible. It still strikes me as interesting that one side can play at 82 RPM and the flip at 71.59!

Trusting your ear is the most important part. If it sounds good to you, that's what should matter.

Even Edison DDs can (rarely) have slower or faster speeds, it's rare indeed for them to, but some do. A Hempel side comes to mind that is way off at 80, but at about 76, she sings beautifully.

Let's not forget all those Chicago Brunswick sides from the early 1930s that all go up to 82 or even 84! I transferred a nice Crosby Brunswick featuring the Boswell Sisters the other day (which I will share soon!) that was up over 80, at the standard 78, Bing sounded like a chain smoking Harvey Firestein and the Boswells sounded more like baritones.

Sean

[bart1927]

...but you can always post things here for an opinion and we can give you feed back....
RJ

Thanks, I appreciate all feedback on my transfers. Please also tell me if you think I played a record to slow or too fast, if I filtered too much or too little, if I should have used a bigger or a smaller stylus, etc. I´m still learning!

[bart1927]

Trusting your ear is the most important part. If it sounds good to you, that's what should matter.

Good point, but I don't know if my ears can be trusted completely. It may sound good to me but not to other people. And since I post the results in the Music section I want them to sound good not just to me, but to you, also.

[richardh]

Well, if the music you've posted so far is anything to go by, your transfers are spot on. Nice EQ, not excessive filtering and so far the speeds have sounded fine to me.....trouble is before I can make a final comment I'd have to hear lots more examples!

RJ

[OrthoSean]

Well, if the music you've posted so far is anything to go by, your transfers are spot on. Nice EQ, not excessive filtering and so far the speeds have sounded fine to me.....trouble is before I can make a final comment I'd have to hear lots more examples!

RJ

And I echo that too from what I've heard as well!

Sean

[OrthoSean]

HMV record catalogues state the recording speed if it varies from 78. I only have a 1930 Victor cat., which does not, but maybe earlier ones do?
You'd be surprised just how many HMV's were recorded between 74-81.

Yes, but they can't always be trusted...

The 1905 Victor catalog states a general speed of 76. In the Red Seal section, there is a note about using a pitch pipe or a piano to determine speed and another note about what key certain discs are done in, but no indication of speed. If you were to pitch, say a Patti disc, you'd be finding yourself slowing the turntable down to 73-75 every time, for example, but nowhere do the catalogs mention those speeds.

Even later Victors, as late as 1930, can go down to 75 and up as high as 82 but these do become fewer by then as opposed to 78 or 76.6!

Sean

[bart1927]

Well, if the music you've posted so far is anything to go by, your transfers are spot on. Nice EQ, not excessive filtering and so far the speeds have sounded fine to me.....trouble is before I can make a final comment I'd have to hear lots more examples!

RJ

I'm very glad to hear that. Don´t worry, I`m planning to provide a lot more examples!

[Amberola 1-A]

I have a question. How does one determine the odd speeds mentioned such as say 76.29, etc. I'm well aquainted with the strobe for 78 & 80 rpm, or the use of a stopwatch and a piece of paper under the record or taped to the end of a mandrel for the even numbered speeds. I've always tried to go by ear, such as a Patti disc like Sean mentioned, but haven't a clue as to it's actual speed.

Bill