How old are these Columbia records?

[victorIIvictor]

565
1174

1155
277

Hello,Timo,

I looked your discs up as described in detail below, and the short version is that they are Columbia (USA) recordings made between 1901-1904 and issued for the European market (hence the unfamiliar label style and, I contend, that is why they are double-faced).

Tim Brooks' Columbia Master Book Volume 1, page 52, states "Columbia appears to have begun publishing regular monthly release lists in January 1904, so even this information [release dates] is missing for the first 1500 [catalog] numbers [which are in these early times of Columbia disc production often the matrix numbers as well, e.g., catalog number 277 = matrix number 277.] In short, the best I can tell you is that these matrices were recorded between 1901 and 1904. The Columbia Master Books don't show any European issues for these matrices, nor do they show that they were ever issued in double-faced form. But, as the author freely admits, there are a lot of gaps, especially for these early issues.

Columbia 277 appears to be take 2, and has no announcement. (The Climax issue of 277 has no take number). Does your copy show a take number?

Columbia 565 has no announcement; USA issue matrix number should be 565b-1. What does your disk show under the label?

Columbia 1155--take 1 [announced by Harry Spencer], take 2 [announced by Harry Spencer], and take 5 [unannounced] all were issued on 7 inch Columbia 1155 (USA). Columbia Master Book Volume 1, page 51 states that announcements were discontinued in mid-1904, and some later issues of announced matrices had announcement grooves physically scraped off the matrix.

Columbia 1174--USA issue should be take 2. Columbia Master Book Volume 1 notes that one of the 10 inch versions of matrix 1177, specifically take 2, was coupled with matrix 839 and issued in the USA in August, 1904. That's as close to an exact date as I can come.

From the above, I conclude that these Columbia USA matrices were recorded between 1901 and 1904, and that what you have are European issues of these matrices. Unfortunately, I don't have much data on Columbia's overseas activities. I don't know, for instance, how long Columbia marketed 7 inch discs outside of the USA. I don't know when Columbia introduced double-face discs overseas (but see the next paragraph). On page 10, the Columbia Master Book Volume 1 mentions that Columbia set up a factory in Paris in 1901 to manufacture cylinders, but I don't know if this was ever used for making discs. It also says that Columbia built a disc manufacturing plant in London that was operational by mid-1906. I gather from that information that all Columbia matrices, no matter where recorded, were pressed in Bridgeport, Connecticut, USA until that London factory opened. In short, I don't know when your discs were released, or exactly where.

If, as I suspect, these are European issues of Columbia (USA) matrices, I'm not surprised they are double sided. International Talking Machine Co. of Berlin had begun issuing double sided Odeon records in 1904 worldwide, and I imagine Columbia would've been forced to issue double-faced records in Europe, at least, just to compete. And, as has been discussed, Columbia issued at least some double-faced records in the USA in 1904.

Questions for you, Timo:

Are these labels gold printing on black paper? It's a little hard to tell.

Which selections are announced? Because you say two of the selections are announced, I suspect you have a take that is not documented in the Columbia Master Book.

Which selections are coupled with which? Apparently none of these selections received a double-faced issue in the USA.

What are the matrices of each recording? That is,**exactly** what numbers are stamped under the label?

Best wishes, Mark

[Timo Gramophone]

Hello Mark,

These labels are indeed gold printing on black paper.
No. 1174 "Love's dream after the ball" is announced
No. 1155 " Hiawatha" is not announced.
No. 277 " Overture to Fra Diavolo" is announced
No. 565 " Toreador song from Carmen" is not announced

No. 1174 is coupled with no. 1155
No. 277 is coupled with no. 565

No. 277 has matrice 277-4-E
No. 565 has matrice 565-3-3
No. 1155 has matrice 1155-5-63
No. 1174 has matrice 1174-2-J

- Timo

[victorIIvictor]

Hello, Timo,

Thanks for answering my questions. For what it's worth…

Neither No. 277 take 4 nor No. 565 take 3 seem to have been issued in the USA, at least, not according to the Columbia Master Books. I note both of these takes have letters after them. Perhaps Columbia's UK or Continental branch used letters for stamper identification, while Bridgeport used numbers for this purpose.

No. 1155 is the same unannounced take 5 released on Columbia (USA).

No. 1174 is take 2 released on Columbia (USA). The Columbia Master Books don't specify this as being announced, but this matrix-and-take is the only one shown as being released on a 7 inch disc.

Best wishes, Mark

[Timo Gramophone]

Hello Mark,

I now know that at least two of these records are likely American recordings made between 1901-1904, released in Europe, thanks for that information.
So, if i understand it correctly, the precise date these recordings were released is not known.
The history of these records is more clear for me now.
I thank you all for the help.

- Timo

[Starkton]

So, i suppose my records must be Russian, i hadn't thought that!

Certainly not Russian, pressed in c. 1906 for the British market. I am not sure if the discs were still imported from the US or already pressed in London.

[victorIIvictor]

Hello, Timo, you wrote:

"I now know that at least two of these records are likely American recordings made between 1901-1904, released in Europe, thanks for that information."

Likely all four recordings were made in the USA. Matrix 277 was issued in the USA on both Climax and Columbia, but Climax does not show take numbers, and collectors in some instances have found Climax records of the same selection, showing no take numbers, but obviously different take since they featured three different singers! Take 2 was issued on Columbia 277 (seven-inch version), take 5 was issued on Columbia 277 (10-inch version), and there was also a 10-inch version of Climax 277, with who knows how many takes. I think it's unlikely that Columbia would have gone over to Europe to record the same selections and placed them within the ongoing USA matrix series, especially at this early date (cir. 1902). The takes you have may have been issued on Climax in the USA, but without comparing the recordings, there is no way to know for sure.

As for the 7 inch matrix 565, the same logic may apply even though the Columbia Master Books don't show a 7 inch Climax release for that matrix. That does not mean there was never one issued. (As an aside, the 7 inch and 10 inch versions of 565 on Columbia bear the exact same matrix number (oops!) and the 10 inch matrix 565 on Columbia and Climax are entirely different selections!)

"So, if i understand it correctly, the precise date these recordings were released is not known."

That is correct. All I can say is that they were recorded and released in the USA sometime between 1901 and 1904. When your particular discs were issued in… England? Continental Europe? Russia? I cannot say.

"I thank you all for the help."

You are welcome! Best wishes, Mark

[Timo Gramophone]

Okay, i understand it. It's more clear for me now.
I've already learned a great deal about the records, and early disc records in general, because of your help.
I find these early disc records highly fascinating.

Thank you all,

- Timo

[mf77]

Some Russian discs with very similar labels - note the 1903-1906 dates!

http://www.russian-records.com/categori ... cat_id=533

That's a fantastic resource. Thank you for posting the link.

[MisterGramophone]

Due to the 7” size, these were likely produced at some point before 1908.