Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Discussions on Records, Recording, & Artists
User avatar
De Soto Frank
Victor V
Posts: 2687
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:27 pm
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by De Soto Frank »

Cody K wrote:Additional huh: Digging in the piles of what I've got lying around, the earliest-numbered scroll I've run across so far is 19838, Billy Murray's Roll 'Em Girls with Murray and Aileen Stanley doing Down By the Winegar Woiks on the reverse. Thing is, this one has "RCA Victor Company" on a curved line at the bottom of the label -- which only proves that it was pressed in 1930 or so, though it was recorded in 1925. I'm pretty sure I had a batwing copy of this at one time.

And 20071 has "Orthophonic Recording" in a single line to the left of the hole and "Victor Talking Machine Co." in a straight line at the bottom; while this is the earliest version of the scroll label, all it shows is that the record was pressed before 1928. Sherman notes that the catalog number was moved to the right of the hole and "Orthophonic Recording" appeared in two lines at the left of the hole in 1927, but these changes only appeared in the case of new recordings.

Obviously I need to be looking for the highest-numbered batwing I can find, not the lowest-numbered scroll. Of course! Some things stayed in print for quite a while and newer pressings would be given the label currently in use.

My copy of "Down by the Winegar Woiks" / "Roll 'em, Girls" by Murray and Stanley is on a Victor arch-label ( or "bat-wing", as most collectors seem to refer to them.)

I have a few Victor electrical recordings that were issued with the old arch-label... but they have the VE impressed in the "dead wax" inside the run-out area... don't remember exact titles as I sit here, believe they are classical ?

:coffee:
De Soto Frank

User avatar
Wolfe
Victor V
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by Wolfe »

De Soto Frank wrote: I have a few Victor electrical recordings that were issued with the old arch-label... but they have the VE impressed in the "dead wax" inside the run-out area... don't remember exact titles as I sit here, believe they are classical ?

:coffee:
There's quite a lot of those around. It was half year or so from the start of electrical recording in Feb-March, 1925 to the big Orthophonic roll out (and label change) in late 1925.

User avatar
Dischoard
Victor II
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:41 pm
Personal Text: Born in the wrong century...
Location: St. Albans, Vermont

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by Dischoard »

The earliest numbered Victor scroll I have is Vernon Dalhart - Wreck Of The Old 97 / The Prisoner's Song with catalog number 19427 from 1926. But this may be because the original, non-electrically recorded version, was a huge hit and so they tried capitalizing off of that by re-recording the tune and issuing it on the new scroll label.
Dalhart.jpg
Dalhart.jpg (125.63 KiB) Viewed 882 times
My next scroll doesn't start until 19741 Sousa's Band - The National Game / The Black Horse Troop

The latest Victor batwing label I have is Jack Smith (The Whispering Baritone) - I Don't Believe It - But Say It Again / I'd Climb The Highest Mountain If I Knew I'd Find You with catalog number 20038 released June 11, 1926 and has the V.E. in an oval in the matrix runout showing that it was recorded electrically
R-17580073-1614260963-2288.jpeg.jpg
R-17580073-1614260963-2288.jpeg.jpg (127.45 KiB) Viewed 882 times
The earliest Victor batwing I have with that stamp in the run-outs is Waring's Pennsylvanians ‎– Collegiate / Look At Those Eyes with catalog number 19648 and released June 5, 1925. I actually have about 18 pre-scroll batwings with the (V.E.) in the run-outs all between catalog number 19648 and 20038.

User avatar
msherman
Victor O
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by msherman »

Recorded 28 Jun 1926. Record released 13 Aug 1926. As this is the highest # Batwing label in the regular series I have encountered, I'd say the Scroll Label began appearing on new releases in late August 1926. I believe it may have been officially announced to the public in September. (Of course, there could be a higher number I haven't seen or heard about, but probably not by much.)
Attachments
20101.jpg
Last edited by msherman on Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

VanEpsFan1914
Victor VI
Posts: 3165
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:39 am
Personal Text: I've got both kinds of music--classical & rag-time.
Location: South Carolina

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by VanEpsFan1914 »

I have the same recording of "Black Bottom" from 1926, but it's on a scroll label (still a great tune though.)

The switch happened I think in 1926--as I've seen the scroll label of "Wreck of the Old 97" on a VE batwing, and happen to own both recordings on batwing pressings.

AmberolaAndy
Victor V
Posts: 2417
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 10:15 pm
Location: A small town near Omaha, Nebraska

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by AmberolaAndy »

I got a record of Waring’s Pennsylvanians “I’ve Got Some Lovin To Do” / “Thanks For The Buggy Ride” a 1926 release but still on the Batwing label. This has puzzled me.

User avatar
marcapra
Victor V
Posts: 2180
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:29 am
Personal Text: Man who ride on tiger find it very difficult to dismount! Charlie Chan
Location: Temecula, CA

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by marcapra »

This doesn't address your question, but I just wanted to add that the first electric Victor record in the U.S. was 19625, but it would have been issued on a batwing label. (The Almost Complete 78 rpm Record Dating Guide, Steven C. Barr, Yesterday Once Again, c. 1979, 1992).

User avatar
gramophone-georg
Victor VI
Posts: 3984
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:55 pm
Personal Text: Northwest Of Normal
Location: Eugene/ Springfield Oregon USA

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by gramophone-georg »

I have noticed a "trend" with what I refer to as "either/ or" records that most of the late Batwings (19900-20000 series) have the little circle over Nipper indicating an Oakland pressing on Batwings and no circle over Nipper on scrolls. Wonder if the label change started back East and migrated West...
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

User avatar
Dischoard
Victor II
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:41 pm
Personal Text: Born in the wrong century...
Location: St. Albans, Vermont

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by Dischoard »

marcapra wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:48 pm the first electric Victor record in the U.S. was 19625
I would check that, I believe the first was 19626 but then again, that's wikipedia for you though the user does list as their source
the Victor recording log book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Ta ... ording_era

User avatar
Dischoard
Victor II
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:41 pm
Personal Text: Born in the wrong century...
Location: St. Albans, Vermont

Re: Victor's switch from batwing to scroll: at what number?

Post by Dischoard »

Just came upon # 19730 which is NOW my earliest scroll other than the Dalhart which seems to be an anomaly.

https://www.discogs.com/Victor-Concert- ... e/14674998

Post Reply