Matrix Number Question on Victor Batwing and Scroll Labels

[Frisco The Beagle]

By coincidence, I ended up with 2 copies of Venetian Trio records with the songs "To A Wild Rose" and "The Rosary". One of the records is a Victor batwing label, while the other is a Victor scroll label. The matrix number is different for each song on the two different labels.

The batwing label matrix number is 18208-A and 18208-B, while the scroll label matrix number is 20894-A and 20894-B.

Why would the matrix number be different? I was thinking the matrix number would be the same regardless of the style of label used. Also, the scroll label shows the songs to be orthophonic recordings with the "VE" logo. Would they have recorded the songs twice - once acoustically and then again electrically?

Any info is greatly appreciated!

[gramophone-georg]

They re- recorded it when electrical recording came in.

[Governor Flyball]

The batwing label matrix number is 18208-A and 18208-B, while the scroll label matrix number is 20894-A and 20894-B.

Why would the matrix number be different?

One is acoustic and the other electric. The "Two a Wild Rose" numbers you cited are the catalog numbers, not matrix numbers.

The acoustic matrix number is B-18159 and the electric is BVE-18159. So the matrix numbers are essentially the same except for the prefix.

You can find the details at the DAHR website:

https://adp.library.ucsb.edu

[Frisco The Beagle]

Thank you for the info!
I need to look closer and see if I can find the matrix number on the records. The catalog number is embossed in the record as well as printed on the label.
Thanks again!

[Wolfe]

You won't see the matrix # on those discs. Many Victors have the matrix # hidden underneath the label.

[Frisco The Beagle]

Wolfe - that explains it - thank you!

[Governor Flyball]

Use the DAHR website to determine the matrix number from the catalog number.

Other useful information is the "Take" number. Looking at the record with the catalog number at the 12 o'clock position, you will see the take number at the 9 o'clock position. You use that number to determine the date that particular take was recorded.

[Inigo]

Another clarification. Victor matrix numbers were hand engraved by the engineers in the label area, with other data, as title, performer and date. When the wax was processed, all this information remained in the metal parts obtained (master). When they obtained the actual metal parts for pressing records, the central area was machined in some way, so that's why the labels appear perfectly flat and deeper than the record surface, and the handwritten info disappears. Nevertheless, what they exported to other countries (HMV) for pressing records were these metal parts (mother) so in other countries where the final matrix treatment and pressing processes were done locally and in a different way, that engraved info remained, and many times it can be seen under the labels, especially in the acoustic records. It depends on the processing, which varied several times. Fort instance, earlier Gramophone European records had deep labels, and that info disappears. Later records were pressed with flush labels, and in these you can see the original handwritten info under the label. Later again the labels were changed and original handwritten info disappeared again. On some later HMV pressings, remains of original handwritten info appears only around the labels, as the original writing was larger that the latter label area.
Nevertheless, in Europe we had an advantage: the matrix numbers were also reengraved in the runout area, so whatever happened later to the label area during pressing, we always can see the matrix number in European pressings.
In the other hand, as the Victor engineers embossed the issue numbers and take numbers in the runout area on the metal parts before exportation, we can also see these in our European pressings.
Of course, practices changed with time, and there is a myriad of different cases in our European pressings from US Victor recordings! Even during a time, local engineers, at the time of stamping the matrix numbers in the runout area, they also took the work of erasing the original Victor issue numbers, the VE logo, etc. But in those pressings, under a strong light, it is sometimes possible to see these erased numbers very faintly.

[Frisco The Beagle]

Thanks to all for the info - it is greatly appreciated!