Best Technique to Capture Groove Music from Diamond Discs

[Marc Hildebrant]

Group,

Over the years I have tried various size stylus, turntables, cartridges, etc. to convert the groove motion to digital values for Edison Diamond Disc Records.

Currently I'm using a Re-Loop turntable with a Stanton 500 Cartridge, and a stylus from "Expert Stylus" that has a conical shape with a 0.00375 radius. I use 3.5 Grams with 4.5 Grams anti-skate.

To be honest, I do not know if this is the best set-up to capture the Edison Diamond Disc sound. My results sound good, but I would like to understand in more detail what Edison actually did in his recording process and design idea. I do have a drawing from the Edison Factory showing the Diamond Disc needle with a conical shape and a radius of 0.0035 inch but that is it.

Anyone have more in-depth information ?

Marc

[Inigo]

I also use a Reloop tt with infinite variable speed from 15 to 160rpm for my 78s! It costed a mere $180, in 2000 or so... I also use a Stanton 500, and I also have a shure sc35c, but I find the sound of shure more shrill, and the sound of Stanton more warm. I had formerly original shure ss78e styli, but I worn it. Now I'm using conical 2.5 mil styli, generic from an UK supplier, mounted for Stanton 500, and they run well with most 78s except some wide groove records, which I feel would need maybe a 3mil or 3.5mil stylus.
I also use a Phillips cetamic cart with vynil sapphire stylus, which I've ground off the point to make it suitable for 78s, and it also works well, although with less sensitivity.

[drh]

Currently I'm using a Re-Loop turntable with a Stanton 500 Cartridge, and a stylus from "Expert Stylus" that has a conical shape with a 0.00375 radius. I use 3.5 Grams with 4.5 Grams anti-skate.

To be honest, I do not know if this is the best set-up to capture the Edison Diamond Disc sound. My results sound good, but I would like to understand in more detail what Edison actually did in his recording process and design idea. ...

How about your preamp? Off the top of my head, I don't know what EQ curve Edison chose for his electrical recordings, but you'll want something with that setting, and for the acoustic ones you'll want true flat playback, which with magnetic cartridges is something different from simply passing the signal through without equalization. I know of only one phono preamp that offers the latter, the Graham Slee Accession. I wrote a review of it here: https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/gsp_accession2_e.html The article includes a couple of recorded examples from diamond discs. If you're interested in it, the company offers a "loaner" program that will let you try one out at home for a period paying only for postage to move it on to the next borrower.

(Apologies to those who have seen me belaboring that subject before; I think the Accession is a major advance for acoustic recordings, and I have the impression as a component aimed at the "audiophile" crowd it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves in the early records community. I hasten to add, I have no connection to the company beyond being an enthusiastic user, having bought one myself on the secondhand market after returning the review sample.)

[Marc Hildebrant]

drh,

For a preamp I use a "Flat" preamp , i.e. one that has no modifications to the frequency response. The output from Acoustic Diamond Discs is "constant velocity" and as such needs no equalization.
I use the same preamp for Edison Electric recorded Diamond Discs and I apply some frequency modification after the recording but documentation for Edison Diamond Disc Electric recording is unknown (if anyone has some, let me know).

The lateral recordings for Edison used a version of the method that Maxfield and Harrison used, but still much is not known about Edison's work.

My Music Handbook (Chapter 22 in the Fourth Edition) goes into the subject of equalization, constant velocity, constant amplitude, and even constant acceleration for records. Its a fun and interesting subject!

Marc

[drh]

drh,

For a preamp I use a "Flat" preamp , i.e. one that has no modifications to the frequency response. The output from Acoustic Diamond Discs is "constant velocity" and as such needs no equalization.
I use the same preamp for Edison Electric recorded Diamond Discs and I apply some frequency modification after the recording but documentation for Edison Diamond Disc Electric recording is unknown (if anyone has some, let me know).

The lateral recordings for Edison used a version of the method that Maxfield and Harrison used, but still much is not known about Edison's work.

My Music Handbook (Chapter 22 in the Fourth Edition) goes into the subject of equalization, constant velocity, constant amplitude, and even constant acceleration for records. Its a fun and interesting subject!

Marc

Trouble is, the record is "flat," but magnetic cartridges aren't--they have a 6 dB per octave rising response characteristic. The Accession compensates for that.

[Wolfe]

Edison company used General Electric recording gear at least for the earlier electrical DD's. What the G.E. recording curve is, I do not know. In all these charts that detail 78 recording curves, strangely I've never seen one for Edison electricals.

[Marc Hildebrant]

With regard to the "magnetic cartridge rising response". I have a picture of the frequency response of the same acoustic song (Charleston) played by a Edison Record Player (Sheridan S-19) and a version through a magnetic cartridge and flat preamplifier. The white graph is the Edison Phonograph and the Yellow is the Cartridge. The scale is the same and while there are some amplitude differences you can see that the cartridge roughly follows the phonographs response for the mid frequencies and then rolls off as does the phonograph. The cartridge is picking off more music frequencies here and there.

If the cartridge was causing a "un-natural" rise of 6 dB per octave or 20 dB per decade, than you would clearly see this effect when comparing the same record.

Using a magnetic cartridge with a flat preamp is the correct way to record and play the records.

Marc

[CarlosV]

This interesting video shows some experimenting with diferent cartridges with audible differences in the results, see

(Double-click the video above or click this link to go to the video on YouTube.)

[Marc Hildebrant]

Carlos,

Thanks for posting the video. It raises some interesting idea's...

Marc

[Inigo]

So they sound better with the LP stylus... Interesting!
Thanks for sharing!