What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Discussions on Records, Recording, & Artists
Post Reply
AllenKoe
Victor II
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by AllenKoe »

Hi,

Many of you may (or not) recognize the name of this semi-famous inventor, who developed the patent date that we see everywhere on early celluloid cylinders. That date was July 29, 1902, and it first appeared on Lambert cylinders around the end of that year (one-piece construction). We would later see it on the rims of Albany Indestructibles (w/ metal rims), from 1907-1922.

We know that William F. Messer was born in Illinois to John and Mary Messer on June 11, 1874, but he often used a later date. He had 3 daughters with his British wife Rose Corbett who settled in the US. They lived both in Ohio and Illinois over the next few years, but what eventually happened to him is still a mystery. Rose Messer died in 1917, and is in the same plot (in Chicago) with his parents, but Wm Messer is not there.

What should we offer to the genealogically-oriented collector who can solve this riddle? In the forthcoming article on Thomas Lambert, I suggest that he died "around 1919." His WWI Draft Card (late 1918) is known, but he does not appear in the 1920 Census. Since we still have a few copies of 'ECR, 1889-1912' left, that might be an appropriate reward. To whomever can identify the (documented) date of his death, his cemetery location, or something like that, we are glad to send one signed and numbered book covering all US Edison wax cylinders (even 'North American'), 2" and 5", brown wax and black, and even 4-min wax.

Much thanks - if anyone is successful, we can still add that info in the article which appears in the Sept issue of AP.

Regards
Allen

User avatar
Lucius1958
Victor VI
Posts: 3935
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:17 am
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by Lucius1958 »

If we knew what the "F" stood for, that might help.

He would have been in his 40s in 1918, so he probably wouldn't have been drafted...

- Bill

User avatar
Curt A
Victor Monarch Special
Posts: 6412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:32 pm
Personal Text: Needle Tins are Addictive
Location: Belmont, North Carolina

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by Curt A »

William Messer is a relatively common name, so more details are necessary - the "F", as previously mentioned.

Where - what exact cemetery - was Rose and William's parents buried in, since that is already known and where was that information found? "Chicago" is a large city - was it in Cook Co. or somewhere around Chicago? Was "Rose" a given name or a nickname? Where was Rose living when she died and is that where her death occurred? How and where did you find Rose's death date of 1917?

Where did they get married and what state did they live in at that time? If you found the "correct William Messer" in a census record, what year was it and where was the census taken? Where (what location) does it show that he was living at that time and who was he living with?

It seems you have discovered some information already... What are the sources and are there any other details you have not included?

Your quote:
"I suggest that he died "around 1919." His WWI Draft Card (late 1918) is known, but he does not appear in the 1920 Census".

How have you determined that the 1918 draft card belongs to THE William F. Messer in question? Does it list his parents? If so, where did you discover his parents' names? Is the 1919 death date a pure speculation based on the fact that you didn't find him in "the 1920" census? Which one, "1920 census" from what location? There are many reasons that would explain his absence from a given census: He wasn't at home when the census taker came by; He moved to another location (city, state or country); the census taker wrote down his name wrong; he died; etc. You can't make an assumption of death because you didn't find him listed. If he died in the U.S., there is a death record somewhere. The question is "where"...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

AllenKoe
Victor II
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by AllenKoe »

Hi Curt,

You pose some very interesting and necessary questions. How can I even claim that inventor Wm F. Messer died "around" 1919, when there are a myriad of alternate possibilities (in the world of genealogy). And I am not a genealogist myself.

His middle name was Fredrick but sometimes spelled "Frederick" - his WWI Draft Card also gives the Chicago street address of his older sister Paulina. As you probably know, there are various ways to triangulate information, to avoid making a mis-identification.

His wife was nee Rose (Ann) Corbett but sometimes "Corbutt". Her father (back in England) was Robert Corbett, and in the 1910 US Census she claimed to have arrived in the US in 1903, and to have married her husband Wm Messer in 1904. That is a little bit of a problem since Messer left the US (for the Lambert Co) in July of 1902 and didn't return to the US until Xmas of 1904. Where/when did he meet her and where did they get married? And why do the births of their 3 daughters (Dorothy, Mildred, Gladys) only begin in 1908 (in NYS)?

Rose died in Euclid, Ohio on Mar 28, 1917, of appendicitis. But her husband at the time (Wm) was not the one who signed the Death Certificate - it was the Undertaker. According to the DC, she was buried at East Cleveland Cemetery on the 31st. But when I called them, they had no record of her internment at all. After some detective work, I found her in "German Waldheim" Cemetery, but buried a week later (April 7), with HIS parents, John and Mary Messer. She has no marker. And her husband (sad to say) is not there.

Logically, it would seem that WF died in Ohio or Illinois, and he was, over the Census years (1880, 1900, 1910), always listed with related people in some way. He always appeared as well in various City Directories, and his occupation(s) was "pipe fitter, "plumber," "iron worker" and Mill Wright." After 1919, these usual "sources" stop stone cold. So I am indeed assuming that he died "around 1919."

The Reward offer for any documented evidence of his death (same/diff) still holds, and I will be happy to be contradicted against my assumption.

Best
Allen
Last edited by AllenKoe on Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Curt A
Victor Monarch Special
Posts: 6412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:32 pm
Personal Text: Needle Tins are Addictive
Location: Belmont, North Carolina

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by Curt A »

..."in the 1910 US Census she claimed to have arrived in the US in 1903, and to have married her husband Wm Messer in 1904. That is a little bit of a problem since Messer left the US (for the Lambert Co) in July of 1902 and didn't return to the US until Xmas of 1904."

Not necessarily a problem, IF they got married at Christmas or New Years Eve, celebrating his return... it would still be 1904.

If he lost his parents and his wife before his death, where was his sister Paulina living in or after 1919? That may be a clue to his location...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

User avatar
Lucius1958
Victor VI
Posts: 3935
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:17 am
Location: Where there's "hamburger ALL OVER the highway"...

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by Lucius1958 »

The daughters might be another line of investigation: did they marry, if so, whom? Did they have any children? Could any of their descendants still survive, and have any family archives? Hope this search will turn up something...

- Bill

AllenKoe
Victor II
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by AllenKoe »

Hi

Thank you for the additional suggestions. Of course, there are a number of possibilities to explain what was going on. I did track his married sister Paulina and her children, as well as 2 of Wm Messer's 3 daughters (Dorothy/Mildred). I couldn't find much on Gladys, his youngest. And not everyone tells the 'truth' on official forms either...

Also odd is that on the WWI Card of Wm Messer, he does NOT mention that he would be exempt from the Draft on the basis that he had a wife, and 3 children (girls) all under the age of 10. Also odd is that Wm is not referred to on his wife (Rose's) Death Certificate, and that initially she was to be buried in Ohio (East Cleveland Cemetery) and a week later, was abruptly interred in a different Cemetery in a different state (Illinois). If he (Wm) arranged for his young wife to be buried in HIS family plot (w/John & Mary Messer) i.e. HIS parents, why wouldn't he do the same for himself? As I said, SHE doesn't even have a stone. Well, look at the situation of Thomas Lambert who died in Chicago in 1928 - that wasn't even his real name, and he also had no grave marker. The article will reveal the surprise ending to that story.

I always search numerous newspaper databases as well as paid Genealogical entities like Ancestry. I take nothing for granted, and call the Cemeteries when there is the slightest doubt. I also use City Directories, Census Reports, Google Books, Internet Archives, etc. And of course, Ship Manifests. Also various State Death Records, year by year. And of course FindaGrave.

But out there, someone may have some more information. It reminds me of an old problem I had, when I was researching Ademor Petit's patent for the 2-sided record. Yes, there was actually a patent for such an (obvious) item (once controlled by Victor)! Even though he was a former Edison employee, the Edison Site did not have a photo of him, so I posted queries on the 'Net wherever I could. Many moons later, a descendant of the family contacted me, and was grateful for the additional info. In return, she shared an early photo of Ademor. Even though he was a fairly important inventor, in both cylinders (also celluloid) and discs, and ran one of the oldest phonograph shops anywhere (1898), no book or reference EVER was able to present a pix of him (in Europe or the US), even for when I wrote a history of the 2-sided record years ago ("Both Sides Then"). You will be glad to know that his picture will finally appear, in the Sep issue of AP. Some things take time... ;-)

I hope the current puzzle of what happened to Wm F. Messer doesn't take that long! The Reward still holds...

Allen

AllenKoe
Victor II
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by AllenKoe »

"Not necessarily a problem, IF they (Wm/Rose) got married at Christmas or New Years Eve, celebrating his return... it would still be 1904."

Technically, this is correct. BUT if Rose came to the US from England in "1903" and he was in England ALL of that year (as far back as July 1902), and till the end of 1904 (as he claimed), where did he meet her and the presumed romance develop? How did they grow so close - in that period - that they would marry?

And the children didn't start arriving until 1909.

It may well be something simple, and we are free to predict the eventual solution.

Allen

User avatar
Curt A
Victor Monarch Special
Posts: 6412
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:32 pm
Personal Text: Needle Tins are Addictive
Location: Belmont, North Carolina

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer?

Post by Curt A »

"BUT if Rose came to the US from England in "1903" and he was in England ALL of that year (as far back as July 1902), and till the end of 1904 (as he claimed), where did he meet her and the presumed romance develop? How did they grow so close - in that period - that they would marry?"

MAYBE, they met in England in 1902 and she was already planning to emigrate to the US in 1903. Because they were both heading for the US in the near future, MAYBE they made their plans to marry in the US before she left England. The marriage would give her faster legal citizenship and a short engagement is not that unusual. Think of "love at first sight"... Potentially, marriage to a US citizen would make her new life easier to adjust to after he arrived...

All you can say is "who knows" why people chose to do what they did?

My grand father died in 1919 when my dad was 7. He asked about where the farm was located when he was born and also where his father was buried. My grandmother never told him where the farm was and told him his father was buried in an unmarked grave. I remember going on searches with my dad looking for both locations. In 1999 (9 years after my father died), I located the farm through real estate records and found the "unmarked" grave with a stone on it, in a cemetery that had lost all of the records before 1925... So, for whatever reason, my grandmother lied and concealed information that my dad would have loved to find... A lot of family "history" that has been passed down is misleading, covered up or just plain false...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
My Wife

AllenKoe
Victor II
Posts: 204
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:08 pm

Re: What ever happened to Wm F. Messer (and...)?

Post by AllenKoe »

Well, the Lambert article has gone to bed, with some mysteries solved, and some not...

...and as we speak, the Reward is still unclaimed.

Years ago, I tried to find out (also) what happened to Lambert's only child, a daughter named Gertrude Sarah Lambert (b. Oct 1892). She married her only husband Lloyd Carl in June of 1918, and her father Thomas (well ahead of his time) managed to film her wedding indoors at the Great Northern Hotel (where he had also met the Philpot Brothers years before). Sad to say, that camera work has been lost (afaik).

I thought if I could locate her, she might still have some relics of her father's inventive past. After all, that's how the primeval lead-sleeve phonograph (reciting hours of the clock) of 1878 was located, through family connections and an unpaid-for-storage room (once belonging to Frank Lambert, no relation).

But Gertrude Lambert Carl was about as successful as Wm F. Messer in her disappearing act, i.e. she also didn't leave a record of her passing. She was still alive in the 1940 Census, whereas Messer had 'disappeared' before the one of 1920.

The Sep issue of AP promises to be chock full of (other) interesting articles too, but I am partial to the one on Thomas Lambert and his "many colors."

I suppose we can keep the Reward Offer open for a while, even after publication of the illustrated story of his work and life (year by year, with new 2" and 5" titles)... and even the "recovered" design of the first model elephant that we think we know.

Again, many thanks to those who assisted... in the US and overseas, private collectors and Museums, historical societies and the Edison Papers Project, etc. Couldn't have done it without you...

Allen

Post Reply