I don't like it ................... except when ......

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Wolfe
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by Wolfe »

Oh, I'm not beyond fetishizing the object itself just a little, like some the colorful, artistic labels and stuff. But generally I just want the music I seek in the best way I can get it, or with 78's still often the only way.

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drh
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by drh »

Marc Hildebrant wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:01 pm This is an interesting thread that I just do not understand.

For myself, I like a wide range of music and if I can find the song I like then it does not matter if it's played on an LP or Edison Phonograph. The quality of the music is certainly different when played on a period machine but that by itself does not change the enjoyment of the music. [etc.]
Oh, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. We all have our favored formats, but I think everybody here has tongue at least partly in cheek, too. That said, I'll confess I have yet to hear *any* LP transfer of 78 RPM material that sounded even halfway decent. I can even tell you the one that launched me as a 78 collector: it was one of those godawful Everest LP Caruso reissues. Horrible sounding thing, and I recognized that even as a young high school student with the most rudimentary of knowledge about audio. In recent years, CDs have become much, much better than LPs ever were.

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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by Curt A »

Other than colorful swirled records, picture discs or puzzle records (the content on any of those genres doesn't matter to me), I "generally" don't like 78s before 1920 or after 1932, and not all of those in that range...
"The phonograph† is not of any commercial value."
Thomas Alva Edison - Comment to his assistant, Samuel Insull.

"No one needs a Victrola XX, a Perfected Graphophone Type G, or whatever you call those noisy things."
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by gunnarthefeisty »

I prefer quite a bit of music on 78s, and especially played on original phonographs, because there's no equalization or editing. Youtube tends to do their own auto-stereo thing, and a lot of phones and devices will have some sort of equalizer (as well as many modern turntables). Original records on original machines cut out any digital editing (at least, for any acoustical record. Not sure how this holds up for electrically recorded records that have equalization curves and whatnot)

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Marc Hildebrant
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by Marc Hildebrant »

gunnarthefeisty,

Could you add some info regarding edit and equalization ?

For my podcasts (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1449838) I apply No equalization and only edit out the noise.

Are you referring to the the practice of limiting the high frequencies to reduce noise ? I find that method poor and prefer to remove the actual noise event. Also, some people apply the RIAA curve on acoustic recordings which is not correct as no equalization is needed for a true acoustic recording if a magnetic cartridge is used for a pickup. This is due to the fact that the acoustic recording is in essence a constant velocity recording and a magnetic cartridge is a perfect match.

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gunnarthefeisty
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by gunnarthefeisty »

yeah, that's it

gramophoneshane
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by gramophoneshane »

I don't like listening to any accoustic machine except when there's a loud tone needle in the soundbox.
I've never enjoyed the muted tones of soft, medium, thorn or bamboo needles.
Even any softer tone tungstone/tungstyle needles get the gap filled with solder so they become loud tone.
Nothing beats the full rich sound of a 78 played on a gramophone using loud or extra loud needles.

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Marc Hildebrant
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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by Marc Hildebrant »

gramophoneshane,

You can "crank up the volume" on my Podcasts ! :lol:

Marc

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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by Governor Flyball »

Over many years, I have used different machines and technologies to play shellac records. This includes acoustic playback on earlier and later (Orthophonic) machines and modern variable speed turntables with various sizes of diamond stylii. Certainly the best playback of a specific disc is to choose the best stylus size to fit the groove and use a proper equalizer. Then after setting that up, use an appropriate software to declick and clean up the sound.

But to play many discs randomly off the shelf of an evening, I like a machine I can just put the discs onto and just play with minimal adjustment. This is where my Capehart machine has proven ideal.

The Fabulous Capehart changer needs little explanation. I can load it up with about 20 discs and it will play both sides in sequence by itself through the evening.

The pickup is an Astatic B-2. It was one if the first Rochelle salt piezoelectric transducers and in 80 years the salts will have inevitably dried out with the pickup inoperative. To address this, I experimented using cheap Chinese ceramic transducers sliced into a narrow strip to replace the original piezoelectric element in the B-2. I heavily damped the response with strips of rubber in the B-2 enclosure. The measured frequency response using a frequency test record resulted in a response relatively flat to about 5kHz with it sharply rolling off above. The heavy damping eliminated resonances and the low frequency response goes below 100 Hz without any noticeable peak.

The output level from a ceramic pickup is lower than the piezoelectric pickup and so I built a single tube (6SH7) preamp to bring the level up. The Capehart includes two 25 watt power amplifiers with large 12 and 13 inch speakers. (I added concentric high frequency speakers to the larger speakers to bring up the 3 to 5 kHz range).

The Capehart tone arm shell included two lead weights to bring the tracking force close to a pound. I removed the weights as the improved tracking compliance of my rebuilt B-2 justified it.

With the tracking force at about 16 oz, I use a semi-permanent sapphire stylus which fits the B-2 stylus chuck. It is a standard bent shank stylus.

I think I have a fairly critical ear and feel I have honed the playback to be very good even on worn discs. The frequency cut off above 5kHz (a bit above the Credenza) eliminates most surface noise and harmonic distortion. And the low frequency response, especially on organ recordings is quite phenomenal. Certainly for random playing of discs off the shelf, the sound is superb.

As a result, I turn to 78's more these days for the music. I am less now an LP enthusiast these days. Even 40's and 50's 78's sound great with adjustment of the bass and treble controls to compensate for the later frequency response of these discs.

The moral of this story is that you must search for a machine properly restored and maintained to play the discs you like properly.
Last edited by Governor Flyball on Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I don't like it ................... except when ......

Post by fran604g »

Governor Flyball wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:16 am Over many years, I have used different machines and technologies to play shellac records. This includes acoustic playback on earlier and later (Orthophonic) machines and modern variable speed turntables with various sizes of diamond stylii. Certainly the best playback of a specific disc is to choose the best stylus size to fit the groove and use a proper equalizer. Then after setting that up, use an appropriate software to declick and clean up the sound.

But to play many discs randomly off the shelf of an evening, I like a machine I can just put the discs onto and just play with minimal adjustment. This is where my Capehart machine has proven ideal.

The Fabulous,Capehart changer needs little explanation. I can load it up with about 20 discs and it will play both sides in sequence by itself through the evening.

The pickup is an Astatic B-2. It was one if the first Rochelle salt piezoelectric transducers and in 80 years the salts will have inevitably dried out with the pickup inoperative. To address this, I experimented using cheap Chinese ceramic transducers sliced into a narrow strip to replace the original piezoelectric element in the B-2. I heavily damped the response with strips of rubber in the B-2 enclosure. The measured frequency response using a frequency test record resulted in a response relatively flat to about 5kHz with it sharply rolling off above. The heavy damping eliminated resonances and the low frequency response goes below 100 Hz without any noticeable peak.

The output level from a ceramic pickup is lower than the piezoelectric pickup and so I built a single tube (6SH7) preamp to bring the level up. The Capehart includes two 25 watt power amplifiers with large 12 and 13 inch speakers. (I add concentric high frequency speakers to the larger speakers to bring up the 3 to 5 kHz range).

The Capehart tone arm shell included two lead weights to bring the tracking force close to a pound. I removed the weights as the improved tracking compliance of my rebuilt B-2 justified it.

With the tracking force at about 16 oz, I use a semi-permanent sapphire stylus which fits the B-2 stylus chuck. It is a standard bent shank stylus.

I think I have a fairly critical ear and feel I have honed the playback to be very good even on worn discs. The frequency cut off above 5kHz (a bit above the Credenza) eliminates most surface noise and harmonic distortion. And the low frequency response, especially on organ recordings is quite phenomenal. Certainly for random playing of discs off the shelf, the sound is superb.

As a result, I turn to 78's more these days for the music. I am less now an LP enthusiast these days. Even 40's and 50's 78's sound great with adjustment of the bass and treble controls to compensate for the later frequency response of these discs.

The moral of this story is that you must search for a machine properly restored and maintained to play the discs you like properly.
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