Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

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drh
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Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by drh »

I'm faced with sifting out which to keep of four copies of this record. Three are single-sided Victor 95203; one is side A of double-sided Victor 10008. Side B duplicates a good single-sided copy of that selection that I already have.

The matrices of all three 95203 copies are marked as S/8 dubs and have no take number.

10008-A, however, is marked as take 4, not as an S/8 dub.

The Discography of American Historical Recordings is silent regarding all this, except that it indicates issued originals were take 4. The Bolig Caruso discography indicates Victor issued both originals and S/8 dubs under the 95203 number but that 10008 is always an S/8 dub.

I would be surprised if Victor went back to issuing originals in the later two-sided pressings after creating a dubbed master for the single-sided ones. On the other hand, the 10008 has a take number, not S/8, and a friend tells me he thinks he remembers reading somewhere that originals occasionally appeared on double-sided issues even though the corresponding single-sided issues were dubs. He's not sure, though.

I usually prefer single-sided issues to double, but, absent serious damage or other compelling reason to the contrary, I'll always keep an original in preference to a dub, and the condition of this 10008 is about on a par with that of the best of the 95203 copies. Can anybody here shed any light on the issue of what's on the double-sided copy? I'd be most grateful for insights!

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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by Governor Flyball »

It is news to me that any of the acoustic Red Seals would be issued as a dub especially during the acoustic era. I am not aware nor have I heard a dubbed Victor acoustic record. The only dubs during the acoustic period were by Pathé and Edison and listening to the dubs it will be obvious that it is a dub.

Where did the information that a dub was made by Victor?

Note: I have a dubbed version of Victor 6000 (Caruso Vesti la guibba - Pagliacci) but it was a 1950's issue). Even the Heritage issues from the 1940's are all from the original master.

Please explain your contention further over 95203.

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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by drh »

Governor Flyball wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:56 am It is news to me that any of the acoustic Red Seals would be issued as a dub especially during the acoustic era. I am not aware nor have I heard a dubbed Victor acoustic record. The only dubs during the acoustic period were by Pathé and Edison and listening to the dubs it will be obvious that it is a dub.

Where did the information that a dub was made by Victor?

Note: I have a dubbed version of Victor 6000 (Caruso Vesti la guibba - Pagliacci) but it was a 1950's issue). Even the Heritage issues from the 1940's are all from the original master.

Please explain your contention further over 95203.
Victor did make dubs when masters became worn or proved problematic, as when a record was wearing too quickly in play. In these cases, it marked the matrix with the cryptic symbol "S/8" at the 9 o'clock position. Documented, for instance, in John Bolig's The Recordings of Enrico Caruso:
Caruso Text.jpg
Caruso Text.jpg (71 KiB) Viewed 695 times
An example:
S8.JPG
S8.JPG (102.52 KiB) Viewed 695 times
One commonly found, and audibly fairly obvious, instance is Caruso's recording of "Di Quella Pira" from Il Trovatore. All copies I've seen after the relatively early pressings have been S/8 dubs.

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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by Viva-voce »

Over the years I had 12 different Caruso titles which had that s/8 symbol, all dubbed from 1906-1910 recordings of which half were from 1910 alone including three titles from the Faust series. I don’t know if there are more of his that were dubbed at that time but I’ve seen acoustical Victor dubbings of other singers and of music from other genres.
I’m learned to watch out for those as I prefer the sound quality of the original stamper pressings. Most of the original stamper pressings of the caruso dubbings had very narrow grooves which the steel needles must have worn out rather quickly. When playing on modern equipment I have found the stylus sizes in the 1.5-2.5 mil range yield the best sound quality.

Steven

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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by Governor Flyball »

The dubbing makes sense especially the problematic 1906 Carusos. The La Forza Duet 89001 and Boheme Duet 89006 especially. I have a 1923 Berliner pressing of these selections on 8000 a/b. But they are not dubs. However I cannot recall seeing a Berliner Gramophone dub in Canada. I have found it interesting that with the transition to double sided Red Seals in Canada, the Berliner Gramophone Company and from 1924 the Victor Talking Machine Company of Canada generally used the original masters with the double sided catalog number beside the original single sided number. Double sided Canadian Red Seals would often include the hand written Matrix number before Victor hid it in the recessed center (although in Canada until 1914, Berliner did not recess the center so that the Matrix number and othyere information was visable there).

I have two copies of the Faust Act V trio with Grand Prize labels only: on with the 1908 label and the other no date which suggest they were pressed in 1910-1914 and they are blank at the 9'oclock position.

My 1906 Di Quella Pira has the July 1906 label on the back which obviously will not be a dub. It plays okay with a finer stylus.

Here is the Boheme which looks as if it is off the original master.
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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by Zkeener323 »

What was "Problematic" that the dubbing corrected?

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Re: Faust Prison Scene part III--Caruso, Farrar, Journet

Post by Governor Flyball »

The problematic was the finer groove dimensions which led to premature heavy wear. The La Forza duet by Caruso and Scotti on 89001 is,a good example. I have seen many copies with heavy wear for the first few seconds of playback. It seems that the February 1906 recording session by Caruso was very susceptible to the groove dimension problem as can today be seen and heard on discs recorded on that date.

The Canadian disc 8000 with the La Forza duet on side A looks as if it may be a dub but it doesn't sound like it. The written matrix number is missing but Berliner or Victor seems to often try and conceal it. The B side with the 1907 Boheme duet appear to be from the master. Perhaps by 1907 the cutting stylus dimension issue,had been resolved?

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