7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

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fmblizz
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7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

I purchased an early etched Universal Talking Machine record #5117 titled Stars & Stripes Forever. At the 3 o'clock position in what I will call the run off area, there is the NO. 18. Can anyone on the forum tell me what the #18 denotes? I have looked on the Discography of American Historical Recordings but struck out..

From what i've seen these Universal Talking Machine records precedes the Zonophone label.

picture attached.

Thanks in advance

Blizz
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fmblizz
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Re: 7 inch Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

reverse side.. raised printed area "condition of lease"

blizz
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drh
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by drh »

Just at a guess, it might be a matrix number, with 5117 being the catalogue number. Might also be a stamper number, but if I were a betting man I'd go with matrix. At least, that interpretation would align with what Victor did later on.

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fmblizz
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

Thanks DRH.

What is the difference between the matrix No. and the Record No. ???

I did find the same #18 when checking www.78discography.com. It is on the same line/column as the number and title of the 5000 series Zonophone records even though the name Universal Talking Machine is not mentioned at all. The Stars & Stripes Forever title and the record number 5117 is the same.

blizz
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vintagetenor
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by vintagetenor »

A matrix number is assigned to a recording when it is made. Different takes of the same piece by the same artist are usually denoted by a suffix (-A,-B, etc.) added to the this number.

The catalog number (record number) is assigned to a recording to be issued that will usually appear on the record label. (I say "usually" but at the moment I can't think of an example to the contrary.) That is the number that we use to identify a particular disc. In this case, Zonophone (Universal) 5117.

I suppose a succinct way to say is that the matrix numbers keep track of the recordings made and the catalog numbers keep track of the recordings issued.

By the way, congratulations on that acquisition!

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fmblizz
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

Thanks for that information...

The main reason I even bid on the record is that I've never seen another like it.. I see listings for 7 inch records all the time on Ebay with Berliners and Improved Gram-O-Phone disc commanding the big money. I have a couple etched 7 inch Zonophone records along with a few pre-dog victors but I felt this was something special and the popular Stars and Stripes Forever tune was the icing on the cake...

I've included a small MP4 sound file but not sure it will play.. I'm amazed at the sound quality of a record that is 122 years old...

Blizz

seems strange the 78discography.com list the recording artist as "ZONOPHONE CONCERT ORCHESTRA" yet the record has the name of the artist as HAGER'S BAND
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drh
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by drh »

vintagetenor wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:03 pm A matrix number is assigned to a recording when it is made. Different takes of the same piece by the same artist are usually denoted by a suffix (-A,-B, etc.) added to the this number.

The catalog number (record number) is assigned to a recording to be issued that will usually appear on the record label. (I say "usually" but at the moment I can't think of an example to the contrary.) That is the number that we use to identify a particular disc. In this case, Zonophone (Universal) 5117.

I suppose a succinct way to say is that the matrix numbers keep track of the recordings made and the catalog numbers keep track of the recordings issued.

By the way, congratulations on that acquisition!
Or another way of putting it would be that the matrix number is how the record company keeps track of the parts from which it makes records; the catalogue number is how the record company organizes its records into series enabling it to set prices and dealers to keep track of their inventory and fill customer orders.

Worth noting is that the same matrix may be issued under two or more catalogue numbers. For example, Victor assigned new catalogue numbers to its Red Seal records when it doubled them; one instance would be the Rigoletto Quartet with Galli-Curci, Perini, Caruso, and de Luca, which was single-sided 95100 but later issued as side B of double-sided 10000. Both issues were from matrix C-19132, recorded 1/25/1917. Sometimes it goes the other way, too: different matrices were issued under the same catalogue number. To take Caruso as an example again, Victor issued him singing "Celeste Aida" from Aida under (single sided) catalogue number 88127 both with and without an introductory recitative--the former was matrix C-11423 of 12/27/1911, the latter matrix C-3180 of 3/29/1908. Just to add to the fun, Victor also issued C-11423 as one side of double-faced catalogue no. 6000.

An even better example of "different matrices under the same catalogue number" would be Edison's diamond discs, which routinely assigned the same catalogue number to different takes, sometimes as many as 5 or 6, each with its own matrix number. For instance, I have Edison 82294-L, Zenatello singing the flower aria from Bizet's Carmen, in two copies, one from matrix 4412-A-3-6 and one from 4412-C-2-4. The letters indicate different takes. You can bet that at least 4412-B-?-? could also be found somewhere under that same 82294-L number. Maybe D, E, etc., too--don't know about that, but I wouldn't be surprised! That illustrates why the dichotomy between matrix and catalogue numbers exists, however; the company needed to account for which metal stamper would be put into service for a given pressing run, but can you imagine a dealer trying to make sales while explaining the difference between those cryptic matrix numbers?
Last edited by drh on Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fmblizz
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

Holy crap, think I better stick with machines... :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:

Blizz

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drh
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by drh »

fmblizz wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:47 pm Holy crap, think I better stick with machines... :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:

Blizz
Yup, much simpler. Now, take identifying Columbia models, for instance--uh, never mind! ;)

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fmblizz
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Re: 7 inch etched Universal Talking Machine record

Post by fmblizz »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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