How many plays in a 78 with different needle types?

[EdgarFB]

I've heard a lot of conflicting info on the lifespan of a pre-war 78 on a metal needle... anything from 40 plays to 100 before it wears out. Has anyone carried out tests to see how much better the lifespan is if you use something like BCN or fiber needles?

I hear a lot of "obviously fiber is softer so less abrasive"... but that's not how abrasion works, its the roughness of the surface that counts. I know if I rub a smooth metal bar on my arm... then a soft sanding block, its not the metal bar that causes the damage
So again, has this been put to any sort of testing? If there is a significant difference in life span I'll definitely switch as I have favourite records I must have used 20+times already so hoping its actually verified.

[epigramophone]

I can think of very few records in my collection which would have been played between 40 and 100 times.
Having said that, I have records which belonged to my father (1914-2010) and my grandfather (1885-1963) which have no visible wear after having always been played with steel needles. That is because the needles were always changed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

[52089]

I can think of very few records in my collection which would have been played between 40 and 100 times.
Having said that, I have records which belonged to my father (1914-2010) and my grandfather (1885-1963) which have no visible wear after having always been played with steel needles. That is because the needles were always changed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

This.

There's a guy on Youtube who played the same record literally hundreds of times, with a new needle each time, to test this very principle. Basically there was very, very little discernible difference between the 1st play and the 300th.

[An Balores]

The moral of this story is clear - use each steel needle once only. I know some are tempted to 'get away with' two sides to a steel needle but if you examine a needle after one play you can see it is already worn.......

[EdgarFB]

Oh I use a fresh needle every side, always have.

The thing is, what I've been led to understand from reading everything I can find is a lot of the "wear" on a record has as much to do with the groove getting gradually deeper from the point of the needle, rather than just the shape of the needle wearing the walls. With each playing the next needle sits very slightly lower than the last as it sits on the new "floor" of the groove (meaning the next needle actually has some fresh wall to play). This is when we start to see that slightly grey tint to a worn record as the substrate has begun to show through and snag the needle making it "difficult" to play. (at least this is what I've read, might be nonsense!).

If this is the case then there would certainly be a finite number of plays no matter what just from the weight of even a fresh needle. Changing every time would certainly protect the walls more, as each needle would be shaped correctly to the walls... but not the wear to the bottom of the groove.

[FredSugarHall_fan]

I can think of very few records in my collection which would have been played between 40 and 100 times.
Having said that, I have records which belonged to my father (1914-2010) and my grandfather (1885-1963) which have no visible wear after having always been played with steel needles. That is because the needles were always changed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

This.

There's a guy on Youtube who played the same record literally hundreds of times, with a new needle each time, to test this very principle. Basically there was very, very little discernible difference between the 1st play and the 300th.

Can you attach a link to the series you are talking about? I for some reason haven't been able to find it on YouTube.

Also, to address the topic, I don't think that 40-100 plays is a great rule of thumb here. I'm not purporting to be an expert, but I do have experience, and from what I can tell, the records I play (mostly from the '20s-'30s) don't experience any noticeable wear on my Victrola. The one exception I will make to that is the cheap labels from the dimestore era (especially those pressed by Grey Gull, such as Madison) tend to wear quicker - I've only played my copy of "Oh Gee! There Ain't No Justice" a few times since I got it (making sure to use a new needle EVERY time), but the surface noise already sounds louder than when I first played it.

[EdgarFB]

Ordered some BCNs as I suspect even if their surface is more porous/abrasive against the wall (which they may well not be), they will also be knocked into shape by the groove faster... and certainly won't wear the floor of the groove as fast.

I also found a stub of IM thorn in the case of a machine a while ago, and it sounded lovely!

[52089]

I can think of very few records in my collection which would have been played between 40 and 100 times.
Having said that, I have records which belonged to my father (1914-2010) and my grandfather (1885-1963) which have no visible wear after having always been played with steel needles. That is because the needles were always changed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.

This.

There's a guy on Youtube who played the same record literally hundreds of times, with a new needle each time, to test this very principle. Basically there was very, very little discernible difference between the 1st play and the 300th.

Can you attach a link to the series you are talking about? I for some reason haven't been able to find it on YouTube.

Also, to address the topic, I don't think that 40-100 plays is a great rule of thumb here. I'm not purporting to be an expert, but I do have experience, and from what I can tell, the records I play (mostly from the '20s-'30s) don't experience any noticeable wear on my Victrola. The one exception I will make to that is the cheap labels from the dimestore era (especially those pressed by Grey Gull, such as Madison) tend to wear quicker - I've only played my copy of "Oh Gee! There Ain't No Justice" a few times since I got it (making sure to use a new needle EVERY time), but the surface noise already sounds louder than when I first played it.

Yes, here's a link to play #1. You can find the others on the same channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pITAgJf6WRg

[FredSugarHall_fan]

Thanks, 52089!