Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Share your phonograph repair & restoration techniques here
User avatar
poodling around
Victor III
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am
Personal Text: Play an Irish tune in ragtime and I'll dance the grizzly bear
Location: Made it, Ma ! Top of the world !

Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by poodling around »

A while ago I tried to replace a spring on one of my gramophones. The problem I had was that it was a double spring motor and the bottom line was I couldn't figure out how to separate the two spring canisters - so I gave up.

I am now trying to inspect / assess / replace a single spring motor canister. I found the first stages really easy. As you can see in the photo's below, I have the canister all ready and waiting for the next step.

I would like advice please.

I intend to place the canister in a vice.

a) What is the best method to use to remove the canister top ?

b) Is there much chance of the spring escaping while trying to remove the top ?

c) Is the part highlighted in one of the photo's where the inner spring attaches itself ? (It doesn't seem very 'able' to keep the end in place on it's own maybe ?).

d) Is there a small chance that the spring is intact and can simply be re-hooked onto this raised area ?

e) There is a metal canister shaped object 'rattling around' inside the canister. It looks about the same diameter size as the hole on the top of the canister. I wonder what this could be ? Certainly not part of the spring itself.

Thank you for any help advise you can give.
Attachments
b.jpg
a.jpg
Sun turnin' 'round with graceful motion
We're setting off with soft explosion

gramophoneshane
Victor V
Posts: 2913
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:21 pm
Location: Biggenden, Queensland, Australia

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by gramophoneshane »

a) Probably not the best method but one I've used for years that works for me.
I think the first couple of these I did, I tried to gradually remove it by tapping the lip of the cap (on the side of the barrel) and going round and round, little by little, to slowly lift it from the barrel. I tried hammers, screw drivers and all sorts of things, but I always ended up denting or scratching the barrel up, and/or the lip of the cap.
I was just thinking as I wrote this though, that perhaps a substantial chuck of copper could be shaped to a curved wedge to sit against the cap lip and struck with a hammer, and it would be unlikely to mark or damage the steel cap or barrel, but again it'd be a time consuming process.

Before doing anything though, have a really good look at the cap. Some of these were held on with tiny set screws that are difficult to see, and others have a bayonet type set up and the cap needs to turn before it lifts off the barrel. These normally have a couple tiny dimples on the lip of the cap, sort of like punch marks or spot welds.

The way I now do it is I get a thick wooden dowel, pass it through the hole in the bottom, and at a slight angle let it rest against the cap next to the cap hole.
Holding the barrel in one hand and the dowel in the other, I strike it on the floor or bench, and 9 times out 10 it's off after 2 or 3 goes. You've got to be pretty heavy handed and strike it down quite forceful.
Provided the dowel is resting against the cap and not the spring itself, there's no way the spring is going to suddenly burst out.
It's kind of of like hammering it from the inside with a decent contact area rather than the minute edge of whatever gauge steel was used.
I do the same with Thorens type barrels with the press fitted internal lids with the little square hole to insert a screw drives.
These lids always come of first go..

b) As for the spring coming out, it's extremely unlikely the way I do it.
It never has for me with either method, and Ive done literally dozens of them.

C) The stud or rivet really only has to have a lip a little bigger than the stud diameter to stop the spring slipping off it. Sometimes they are worn and damaged, and you either have to repair or replace the stud, but I've only ever had to do that very few times.
Repairs usually involve either heat and hammer to increase the head area, or sometimes running a hacksaw blade under the stud head to give the spring a little more bite. And of course the stud sometimes falls out completely, and has to be jammed back in, or if the hole is enlarged you need to redrill and make a completely new stud.

d) You really won't know if it's a case of reattaching the spring, or a break or warn stud until you get a look at the spring.

e) The canister shaped thing inside the barrel could simply be a tight centre loop of the spring that's broken off, or I've seen some Paillard springs that have a tube attached to the spring centre, and the solid centre arbour you've got pictured with the stud, slides into the tube and locks together, but those usually have a full length slot and key to hold them firmly and evenly along the full width of the spring instead of just in the centre like a stud through a pear eyed hole.
I'm guessing what you see is the broken spring centre, but again, you won't really know til the caps off the barrel
Last edited by gramophoneshane on Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
poodling around
Victor III
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am
Personal Text: Play an Irish tune in ragtime and I'll dance the grizzly bear
Location: Made it, Ma ! Top of the world !

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by poodling around »

gramophoneshane wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:04 am Probably not the best method but one I've used for years that works for me.
I think the first couple of these I did, I tried to gradually remove it by tapping the lip of the cap (on the side of the barrel) and going round and round, little by little, to slowly lift it from the barrel. I tried hammers, screw drivers and all sorts of things, but I always ended up denting or scratching the barrel up, and/or the lip of the cap.
I was just thinking as I wrote this though, that perhaps a substantial chuck of copper could be shaped to a curved wedge to sit against the cap lip and struck with a hammer, and it would be unlikely to mark or damage the steel cap or barrel, but again it'd be a time consuming process.

Before doing anything though, have a really good look at the cap. Some of these were held on with tiny set screws that are difficult to see, and others have a bayonet type set up and the cap needs to turn before it lifts off the barrel. These normally have a couple tiny dimples on the lip of the cap, sort of like punch marks or spot welds.

The way I now do it is I get a thick wooden dowel, pass it through the hole in the bottom, and at a slight angle let it rest against the cap next to the cap hole.
Holding the barrel in one hand and the dowel in the other, I strike it on the floor or bench, and 9 times out 10 it's off after 2 or 3 goes. You've got to be pretty heavy handed and strike it down quite forceful.
Provided the dowel is resting against the cap and not the spring itself, there's no way the spring is going to suddenly burst out.
It's kind of of like hammering it from the inside with a decent contact area rather than the minute edge of whatever gauge steel was used.
I do the same with Thorens type barrels with the press fitted internal lids with the little square hole to insert a screw drives.
These lids always come of first go..

As for the spring coming out, it's extremely unlikely the way I do it.
It never has for me with either method, and Ive done literally dozens of them.

The stud or rivet really only has to have a lip a little bigger than the stud diameter to stop the spring slipping off it. Sometimes they are worn and damaged, and you either have to repair or replace the stud, but I've only ever had to do that very few times.

You really won't know if it's a case of reattaching the spring, or a break or warn stud until you get a look at the spring.

The canister shaped thing inside the barrel could simply be a tight centre loop of the barrel that's broken off, or I've seen some Paillard springs that have a tube attached to the spring centre, and the solid centre arbour you've got pictured with the stud, slides into the tube and locks together, but those usually have a full length slot and key to hold them firmly and evenly along the full width of the spring instead of just in the centre like a stud through a pear eyed hole.
I'm guessing what you see is the broken spring centre, but again, you won't really know til the caps off the barrel
Absolutely fantastic ! I really can't thank you enough. So much great information.

The tip about knocking the lid of from the underneath hole with a dowel I would never have thought of in 100 years.

Okay, so I will take the lid off tomorrow and report back with what is in there.

Thank you so much.
Sun turnin' 'round with graceful motion
We're setting off with soft explosion


User avatar
Inigo
Victor IV
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by Inigo »

soundgen, thanks for the interesting pages. One never stops learning! And plodding... it might be good to clean the barrel and the arbor first, it could help to see better its details, and how the lid is attached in place! :D
Inigo

gramophoneshane
Victor V
Posts: 2913
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:21 pm
Location: Biggenden, Queensland, Australia

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by gramophoneshane »

Unless you're in a real hurry, just hang off and see what other people say and their ideas.
The first 25 years or so of my motor repairs and methods were largely trial and error with limited tools and resources, and it wasn't until I got my first computer and found forums like this and interacted with other collectors that I've got to hear about other people methods and ideas different to mine.
Different people have different ways of doing things, different ideas and different comfort levels, and often there's no right way and wrong way, but simply different ways to achieve the same goal.
Removing, cleaning and reinstalling a main spring is a perfect example.

I think when anyone is going attempt anything at all for the first time, it's best to see if there's more than one way to do it, and if so find out as much as you can about them and try the one that appeals to you most.
Then next time you can either replicate the process, make changes to the process or try a completely different process.

User avatar
poodling around
Victor III
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am
Personal Text: Play an Irish tune in ragtime and I'll dance the grizzly bear
Location: Made it, Ma ! Top of the world !

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by poodling around »

soundgen wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:33 pm http://springrepair.blogspot.com/
Once again, fantastic information.

It seems to support the 'knock the top off from the bottom' theory which is good to know.

Thanks very much indeed soundgen.
Sun turnin' 'round with graceful motion
We're setting off with soft explosion

User avatar
poodling around
Victor III
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am
Personal Text: Play an Irish tune in ragtime and I'll dance the grizzly bear
Location: Made it, Ma ! Top of the world !

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by poodling around »

gramophoneshane wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:11 pm Unless you're in a real hurry, just hang off and see what other people say and their ideas.
The first 25 years or so of my motor repairs and methods were largely trial and error with limited tools and resources, and it wasn't until I got my first computer and found forums like this and interacted with other collectors that I've got to hear about other people methods and ideas different to mine.
Different people have different ways of doing things, different ideas and different comfort levels, and often there's no right way and wrong way, but simply different ways to achieve the same goal.
Removing, cleaning and reinstalling a main spring is a perfect example.

I think when anyone is going attempt anything at all for the first time, it's best to see if there's more than one way to do it, and if so find out as much as you can about them and try the one that appeals to you most.
Then next time you can either replicate the process, make changes to the process or try a completely different process.
Thanks again gramophoneshane.

The information soundgen has highlighted seems to support your approach so I will try that tomorrow and report back.
Sun turnin' 'round with graceful motion
We're setting off with soft explosion

gramophoneshane
Victor V
Posts: 2913
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:21 pm
Location: Biggenden, Queensland, Australia

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by gramophoneshane »

I'm pleased to see a lot of what I do is the same as suggested in the article above.
Looks like my wooden dowel will be obsolete on some spring barrels now though.
I would never have thought to leave the gear attached to the spring and banging it down to pop the lid.

I first learnt about spring removal in a sack and barrel in a clamp spring insertion in 1979 at 14, about a year after I stated collecting, from the only collector i knew for nearly 20 years, when I took an HMV 103 with a broken spring to his place so he could show me what to do.
I think it was 1981 when, as the article suggests, I discovered it's a bad idea releasing good springs in a sack, when I snapped a previously working spring across the outer pear eye hole.
That's when I learnt to takes springs out by hand.
I've never been a work bench kind of guy, and always prefered to sit on the ground.
Small barrels I normally held with one hand, and the other worked the spring, with the barrel hand also used to stop the spring flying other.
Large barrels weren't so easy, usually needing 2 hands to control the spring.
Not having a clamp to hold the barrel, I used what I had.
I sat on the floor, and holding the barrel between the arches of my feet with my legs in a diamond shape on the floor, I was basically straight above and over the barrel and free to remove or feed the spring easily using both hands.
And that's exactly how I still do it today.

It an enjoyable read, and definitely gives me a little more confidence knowing I'm not the only one doing most things.
I may be the only one gripping barrels with my feet lol

Good luck with your barrel today, and look forward to hearing how it went.

User avatar
poodling around
Victor III
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am
Personal Text: Play an Irish tune in ragtime and I'll dance the grizzly bear
Location: Made it, Ma ! Top of the world !

Re: Restoring a Spring - 'Take 2'

Post by poodling around »

gramophoneshane wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:47 pm I'm pleased to see a lot of what I do is the same as suggested in the article above.
Looks like my wooden dowel will be obsolete on some spring barrels now though.
I would never have thought to leave the gear attached to the spring and banging it down to pop the lid.

I first learnt about spring removal in a sack and barrel in a clamp spring insertion in 1979 at 14, about a year after I stated collecting, from the only collector i knew for nearly 20 years, when I took an HMV 103 with a broken spring to his place so he could show me what to do.
I think it was 1981 when, as the article suggests, I discovered it's a bad idea releasing good springs in a sack, when I snapped a previously working spring across the outer pear eye hole.
That's when I learnt to takes springs out by hand.
I've never been a work bench kind of guy, and always prefered to sit on the ground.
Small barrels I normally held with one hand, and the other worked the spring, with the barrel hand also used to stop the spring flying other.
Large barrels weren't so easy, usually needing 2 hands to control the spring.
Not having a clamp to hold the barrel, I used what I had.
I sat on the floor, and holding the barrel between the arches of my feet with my legs in a diamond shape on the floor, I was basically straight above and over the barrel and free to remove or feed the spring easily using both hands.
And that's exactly how I still do it today.

It an enjoyable read, and definitely gives me a little more confidence knowing I'm not the only one doing most things.
I may be the only one gripping barrels with my feet lol

Good luck with your barrel today, and look forward to hearing how it went.
It is marvelous to 'hear' you recount some of your early memories. So descriptive - I could almost have been there too !

Thanks for saying you look forward to the up-date, there will be one of two photo's too.

Happy days always !
Sun turnin' 'round with graceful motion
We're setting off with soft explosion

Post Reply