VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Share your phonograph repair & restoration techniques here
Post Reply
hifriday
Victor Jr
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:19 am

VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by hifriday »

I purchased a "working" VV-IV off ebay looking to rebuild it. It was working, but not in very good shape (cracked wood, chipped slats, faded top board, mish mash of unmatching screws, rusted hardware, warped platter, cracked paint on arm support bracket, cracked gasket, etc.). However the motor looks like it had been cleaned before and the grease was still soft.

I have done some work on the machine already, but it's condition is still not all that good. I am new to Victrola's so am looking for any tips to help get the machine back into better shape.

So far I have done the following:
- Remove all hardware and clean with WD40 and/or Flitz (unfortunately a lot of the plating is flaking, and rust still on hinges/plates)
- Clean out motor, regrease and reposition governor (however the motor still sounds a little noisy)
- I did not open the spring canister as it still seems to wind and play through a record
- Rebuild the reproducer with new gasket/mica
- Wipe down wood with orange oil and repair cracks with wood epoxy

Some questions I have:
- The tone arm doesn't swing by itself, there is a little drag when it rotates. Does this need to be adjusted, I put in some silicone lube at the rotating base, but does grease need to be added?
- The motor sounds a little noisy, you can hear it in the video. Is this normal for this age/condition/model or something in the setup?
- It will play through some records, but on others it has trouble making it past the outer tracks, dragging to a stop even when wound up. Is the No.2 reproducer correct for this model, or should it be paired with the lighter exhibition? Or some other issue?
- It sounds very loud even with a soft tone needle, maybe the reproducer needs adjusting?

Welcome any comments/suggestions.

Here is a video of it playing, speed not yet calibrated...
[YouTube]https://youtu.be/fTJgOXcdCno[/YouTube]

52089
Victor VI
Posts: 3745
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:54 pm

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by 52089 »

Congrats on your new machine.

First, if you change "https" to "http" on your YouTube link, it will embed correctly.

As for your questions:

The tonearm movement seems perfectly fine to me, as long as it's not binding anywhere.

Sounds to me like something is hitting something else when the motor is running. It could even be the turntable hitting the brake.

Dragging has many causes. One of them may be your use of 1950s records. Period records (1910s-1920s) are less likely to cause issues. The 1950s records will also be the cause of the high volume you are experiencing. Earlier records are not as heavily modulated.

Whether the No. 2 or Exhibition is correct depends on when your machine was made. See victor-victrola.com for more info.

I'm sure others will chime in too.

User avatar
AZ*
Victor IV
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: USA

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by AZ* »

The original post is a bit contradictory. You state, "I did not open the spring canister as it still seems to wind and play through a record." But then you state, "It will play through some records, but on others it has trouble making it past the outer tracks, dragging to a stop even when wound up."

So it works on some records, but not all records. Keep in mind that the VV IV was a cheap machine with a single spring. If that is the original 100+ year old spring, it has gotten weaker with age. Plus, since you didn't open the spring canister to clean and regrease the spring, it will not work as efficiently. If it were my machine, I would clean and regrease the spring. If that doesn't cure the problem, then buy a new spring from Ron Sitko. Keep in mind that as 52089 stated, some records cause drag due to wear or composition. Cameo records, for example, can be tough for weak motors to cope with.

You said you cleaned out the motor. Did you disassemble it and clean all parts so they were spotless? Or just wipe it down?

It should be totally cleaned, lubricated and adjusted. The governor can be a little tricky to get in the sweet spot at first, but you will eventually find it.

I've included a photo of an old and new spring. The old spring (on the left) worked, but not all that well. It was old and tired. The new spring (on the right) worked much better -- keeping even speed and having no issues making it through any record.

As for the noises, do as 52089 suggests. Once the machine is cleaned, lubed and adjusted, it may still have some motor noise due to worn gears, etc. Also be sure to oil the leather pad that rides on governor wheel.
Attachments
springs.JPG
Best regards ... AZ*

User avatar
Inigo
Victor VI
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips + sdbox improvements

Post by Inigo »

I will jump in too.
If the sound seems too loud, try using soft tone needles. In my experience, these machines sound better with steel needles if they're the softer ones (thinner). Also you might want to give a try to the triangular bamboo needles. They are thicker but softer, and tend to give a much warmer sound when properly used.
You must add a drop of hot wax to the point where the stylus bar is attached to the diaphragm, so it gets all around and seals it properly. This can improve the bass. This can also be done with white vinyl glue.

Now for another proposal, a doctorate in soundbox adjusting.
Another trick to improve the bass response in these soundboxes, an elaborated one, is to relax somewhat the pressure exerted by the rubber gaskets on the diaphragm edge, so it can move with greater freedom. The red rubber gasket for the no.2 is elastic, but somewhat hard. Modern reproductions are not always of the same thickness, and in any case, these factory made soundboxes are not exactly always the same. Small variations on the thickness of the soundbox, its back plate, and the thickness of the rubber ring can occur. Thus, you may notice when assembling the backplate if the screws make it too tight when completely screwed in. This is not good. Me and other colleagues prefer to use standard soft rubber tubing instead of the factory made gasket. Then, when assembling the backplate, you put it in place observing the position at which it exerts but the slightest pressure on the gaskets. A little Vaseline on the back gasket helps sealing at this point. You may notice that the backplate rests on the rubber gasket but not on the brass ring (the front ring or the body) of the soundbox. A gap is left between the backplate and the front ring. Well, that's it. In this position, you install the screws just until they begin to press the backplate against the soundbox, squeezing the rubber gaskets behind. The goal is to install the screws so they exert but the slightest pressure on the gasket. In this position, you put a drop of hot wax, or better white vinyl glue, on each screw to fix it, and then let it rest. This will fix the screws firmly in this relaxed position.
After a couple hours, when the glue is dry, you observe the gap that has been left at the backplate joint all around the soundbox body. You must fill this gap carefully, using the same white vinyl glue, sealing all around the backplate joint. This will make the soundbox airtight, securing the backplate in this relaxed position. You may need a first glue application, let dry several hours, then re-seal again with another application. White vinyl glue shrinks when dried. It also becomes almost transparent. It fixes these things with a moderate strength, and will remain there provided you don't let it see water or it will dissolve. Also, things glued with vinyl must not be forced or abused, as it is a light glue on shiny metal, not a strong binding. When you need to remove it, a toothpick is the ideal tool, for you can raise the vinyl film using the point, then remove only by pulling it with small tweezers or your fingernail. But it works great for sealing, and it's easily removable!
You may notice this technique gives the diaphragm more freedom at the edge, and combined with soft rubber ring gaskets of adequate bore, makes the soundbox sing with improved fidelity and bass response. The slight increase produced also in the depth of the air chamber behind the diaphragm also takes part on the sound improvement.
Last edited by Inigo on Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inigo

hifriday
Victor Jr
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:19 am

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by hifriday »

Thanks for the tips.

MOTOR:

For the spring, I figured taking it out would be a second step and wanted to get the other parts working first. It may well need a new spring, but for the records where it dragged, they didn't play through on my VV-XIA where I did take out, repair, and clean the double springs (which probably need to be replaced too). For all the other motor parts, they were disassembled, soaked in degreaser, any residue scraped with a toothpick/brush (but not cleaned to a shine), then reassembled with new grease and some silicone lube.

I did tighten down the governor shaft and that has helped with the noise, but now I hear a repeating noise every time the set screw comes around on the governor gear that is driven by the main shaft. I suspect I may be missing the tiny dimple in the main shaft or the set screw is just so slightly skewing the gear. I tried fiddling with it, but probably need to play a little more with that and also the governor shaft position. The governor springs also look a little long, if I run up the spindle I can hear the machine-gun knocking, but it doesn't seem to be an issue if the speed is kept in the 78 range.

REPRODUCER:

It was played with a soft tone needle, but I think it was the particular record, other's don't sound quite so loud. Also I have fitted the doors back on, and closing them helps. For the reproducer gaskets, you are right. When I was rebuilding, I did notice the replacements I had were quite a bit thicker than the ones that came off, I had to push down very hard to screw on the back plate. I didn't notice this until I tried to close it, which was after I had already setup and waxed the needed to the mica. So I had to redo this as the mica shifts significantly when the reproducer is pushed together.
What kind of rubber tubing do you use, any particular size/thickness and would the softer silicon tubing be even better? Do you mean the thin tube is run lengthwise around the rim of the reproducer where the gasket would go and just have the two cut ends meet at the bottom? I still have to rebuild my VV-XIA reproducer, so can try this method and hopefully hear the difference, or might it better send it off for a professional rebuilding service so I would know what a properly rebuilt reproducer should sound like?

User avatar
Inigo
Victor VI
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by Inigo »

Reproducer:

The gasket tubing is applied as you said. You cut a suitable length, slightly longer than strictly needed, for when you install it forming a ring, the two ends must set together leaving no air gaps in between. The cuts must be as perpendicular as possible, and straight (no barbs or peaks).
For the type of rubber tubing to use, I believe the 2 or 3 mm outer diameter will work. SIlicone tubing is a bit harder than natural rubber, at least the one I once used...
We need herein one of the american/british experts: size of the typical white/red gasket tubing used for Exhibition soundboxes...???

But if the silicone tubing you propose is also soft and pliable, go on with it. The softer the better for its purpose: high compliance at the diaphragm edge joints, and airtightness. I usually put a little vaseline along the gasket. This helps in airtightness, and also helps in sliding the gasket into position, although sometimes can be a bit tricky. If the gasket is cut too long, when you press the ends into position, if vaseline is used they will pop out rebelliously; you'll have to clean it all and start again without the vaseline... :D The mica glass can also end completely soiled with the vaseline.

If yoou want to send it to a professional, go on. There are people ther in the US that make wonders... But I prefer to try myself; thus you learn how to repair it. It's not so difficult, you already have rebuilt the soundbox. Remember the trick: the gaskets must be airtight, and the ends must match as straight as possible, leaving no air gaps.
This rule applies to both gaskets, but the important one is the one at the back: this provides spring compliance (together with the opposite gasket at the front), but it is also the true air-sealing of the chamber behind the diaphragm.

The experiment of relaxing the pressure I started years ago on an HMV no.4 soundbox (the largest mica soundbox, equal to the Victor no.4) and I got such surprising results that I rebuilt all my soundboxes this way.

Go ahead and tell us your impressions...!
Inigo

User avatar
AZ*
Victor IV
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 pm
Location: USA

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by AZ* »

Some more tips/answers:

Motor - Yes, the set screw should screw into the dimple on the spindle. Also make sure the gear that is attached to the spindle via the set screw is right side up.

If you are getting the machine gun sound, you are running the motor too fast. The noise happens when the governor weights strike the motor frame. This can happen even if the governor springs are of the correct length. This can result in broken governor springs.

I am glad that your definition of cleaning matches mine. :)

Since certain of your records won't play on either machine, I suspect it could be the records. Some of the late 1940s/50s records, although black, are made of plastic. Those shouldn't be played on a Victrola. I listened to your VV IV on the youtube video, and it sounds pretty good given the type of record played -- clear, not much distortion but still loud even with soft tone needle. The VV IV works best on accoustical recordings (pre mid 1920s). The later electrical recordings (1930s-1950s) were intended for electrical reproduction. You might want to learn about recording curves and equalization which will help explain why some of the 1940s records sound loud and strident on a Victrola.

Reproducer and tubing - I only have a couple of machines equipped with #2 soundboxes, and I have not overhauled them using white tubing, but with soft rubber gaskets. For a while the only #2 gaskets available were way too hard and not much better than the old gaskets. Most of my Victor and HMV machines have Exhibition, #4 or Orthophonic/HMV 5a or 5b soundboxes. I have overhauled quite a few HMV #4 soundboxes using the white Exhibition tubing which is ⅛ inch diameter. It has worked very well, and my HMV #4 equipped machines (e.g., models 32, 101, 103, 112, 162, 192, 211, 261 & 511) sound wonderful. I have not yet tried the white glue (e.g., Elmer's) or vaseline methods suggested by Inigo. I do try to reduce air leaks by using suitable grease on tonearm joints and even plumber's teflon tape on the soundbox to tonearm connection if it has too much slack/looseness.

Good luck!
Best regards ... AZ*

User avatar
Inigo
Victor VI
Posts: 3753
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am
Personal Text: Keep'em well oiled
Location: Madrid, Spain
Contact:

Re: VV-IV rebuilding - looking for tips

Post by Inigo »

If the rubber collar supporting the soundbox on the tonearm end its dead, a good substitute its one of the red rubber Meltrope collars. There is a model for each soundbox metal collar size and each tonearm bore. It can be directly intakes into the backplate collar, removing the old rubber collar and the inner brass collar. Then the soundbox can be directly pressed on the tonearm end. An additional advantage is that, as far as this new rubber has no pin to fix the zenith angle of the soundbox on the tonearm, you can adjust this angle manually, so y the tracking error can be adjusted somehow.
Inigo

Post Reply