Record lubricants and fillers.

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gramophoneshane
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by gramophoneshane »

You do realise vinegar is acidic, and not pH neutral?
Personally I think cleaning a record means you remove anything from the surface of a record that wasn't there when the record was manufactured.
Anything you add to the records surface basically allows any ground up steel from the needle or worn shellac from the record to stick to it, which is why you get a ball of black on the needle after playing.
That's something that won't ever happen when a record is washed with mild soap and water then rinsed and allowed to dry thoroughly.
The use of a record duster before and after each play prevents any further collection of gunk in the grooves.
Actually, many machine and record manufacturers specifically advised against adding oil to a records surface.

That said, you can use any concoction you choose to, from fly spray to lard, because they are your records, but personally I would never buy a disc knowing they've been treated with something that really only makes the record look shiny, and has the potential of doing irreversible damage.

smitharthur
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by smitharthur »

No one has the definitive approach, and most are only hypothesizing about this psuedo science supposedly taking place within the grooves. And, it's a topic that lends itself to endless back and forth on internet forums.

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Marco Gilardetti
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

While I agree that by reading on the internet one may find hundreds of washing methods, the ones recommended by well-known and knowledgeable record enthusiasts and by long-time record collectors are only half dozen of those; and of these, the ones that don't require expensive equipment are three or maybe four.

In the same way, there are record lubricants that have been put to test for as long as a hundred years or more, and through all the times they were and still are highly praised by knowleadgeable record enthusisasts/collectors; and others that aren't.
Orchorsol wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:32 am As mentioned before, ibota wax is the closest thing to perfection in my opinion - a tiny amount is highly effective, it isn't sticky, and as a material it's homologous in a way with shellac (exuded by an insect).
Personally, I agree in full with the above. The most striking side of the ibota wax is that only a negligible amount (less than 1 mg I would say) is needed to give a *huge* result. It's almost as if the wax wasn't there at all, but still it acts greatly. However, as said by Andy, it's also homologous in nature with the record itself, which is further reassuring to some degree. Ibota wax dosen't have an oily or greasy appearance or "feel", and it looks like nearly completely dry tiny flakes. Last but of course not least, it has been used for as long as a century by the most reputable record collectors, all of whom swore by it, and none of whom reported any damage or problem whatsoever even in the very long run.
CarlosV wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:49 pmNo improvement in sound whatsoever. [...] In summary, until the miracle record rejuvenator shows up, I will stick with my procedure of cleaning the records and play them without any addictives. And throwing out the very worn ones.
Dearest Carlos, of course I understand your points: once a groove has been eroded, there is no ideal "filler" that can reconstruct it by magic. This is a fact; and as a side note, since ibota wax is used in such negligible quantities, it wouldn't have in any case the ability to really "fill" anything. However, by preserving the needle's tip by being eaten out by worn grooves, it can really improve distortion and fidelity, especially towards the end grooves, where the needle's tip in most cases would come stressed and deformed. It does literally miracles with thorn needles, but greatly helps with steel needles as well. I have examples of records that could be barely played up to the end, with horrible swishing sound and the needle nearly skipping over the end grooves, that play very pleasantly after having been treated with ibota wax.

When I begun to use it, I instantly got such unbelievable results (and remember: I was skeptical) that I thought to film a short series of clips about it and show what it can do; clip #1 and #2 are already on my channel, but I filmed also enough material to do a third clip that I had in mind to complete the next time in which this topic would resurface on this board. So I now took the time to edit the third clip, which can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP46I9gtV1U

Concerning the fidelity of reproduction connected to needle's tip wear, you might be especially interested in clip #1.

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Orchorsol
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by Orchorsol »

Really great to read this Marco, and to see your excellent video - thanks for your enthusiasm and kindness - but at the same time I know you would not be making such comments without exactly the results you describe. I too experience near-miraculous results with ibota, and after all, it's not "my" product, I just sell it as a useful little extra alongside the BCN thorn needles...
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

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AZ*
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by AZ* »

I too was skeptical until I watched Marco's youtube videos. Amazing results you can see and hear. The proponents of using Ibota wax have proven their case -- to me at least. :idea:
Best regards ... AZ*

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Marco Gilardetti
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

Many thanks Orchorsol and AZ! That was indeed the spirit of these videoclips: no need to "believe" in anything or to "trust" anyone... Just see and listen with one's own senses. ;)

CarlosV
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by CarlosV »

Another impressive video, Marco! It adds to my frustration as I could not get the results that you achieved out of ibota wax application. I am probably not applying it correctly, will try again - I will do it in a worn Pathé vertical cut, that systematically slows down the motor of the Diffusor to a halt (some of the Diffusor machines have a puny little motor), let's see if there is an improvement.

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Marco Gilardetti
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by Marco Gilardetti »

Thank you very much dearest Carlos!

For records in good conditions, or in order to prevent the "thorn surface burning" effect, one application of ibota wax is generally more than sufficient.

But for most worn-out or however stubborn records, I usually apply the ibota wax and then play the record with a thorn needle repeated times. Usually three is enough; if the record is still unplayable at the third application, insisting further usually doesn't improve much. Also, for some unclear reason, a final play with a soft tone steel needle greatly helps in getting the record "done". Actually, this final pass with the steel needle seems to be the key point in getting the record playable with thorn needles (Andy's findings seem to be consistent with mine, in this regard). I then give to the record a final rub with a velvet pouch, which perhaps is not strictly needed, but in turn impressively rejuvenates the surface and the overall look of the record.

So the sequence for a "nasty" record might be: ibota applied 1st time - played with thorn - ibota applied 2nd time - played with thorn - ibota applied 3rd time - played with thorn - final play with soft tone steel needle - final polish with velvet - test play with a well sharpened thorn needle.

Of course, if the record shows to be already well playable after the first or second application of ibota, I see no point in applying wax any further.

I have no experience at all with Pathé records, not owning any Pathé gramophone. However, as ibota wax works well with thorn and steel needles alike, I figure it should at least do something with sapphire balls as well (although there is no possibility to give the final pass with a steel needle, which seems to be such a key point in the overall process). Please report your findings here!

CarlosV
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by CarlosV »

Grazie mille for the tips, Marco, I will try on a regular 78 rpm with the additional step of playing with a soft tone steel needle (which I never did in my previous trials), maybe this is where I was doing wrong. I will report the outcome!

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Dave
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Re: Record lubricants and fillers.

Post by Dave »

For several years now i've used a product called "Static Guard" which comes in an aerosol can and is primarily used to eliminated or reduce static charges on clothing.
It does contain as a form of tallow which could be why i have gotten good results with tracking improvement and reduction of wear on the records i have played on my Credenza.
I simply spray the face of the record with a liberal amount and then buff vigorously with a fiber cloth to a sheen. There's never been any problems with bleeding of labels or degradation of the record material.
I can play recordings from the late 40's without a hint of distortion or wear... i highly recommend it.

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