Washers at the bottom of HMV 102 spring case, Russian copy?

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nostalgia
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Washers at the bottom of HMV 102 spring case, Russian copy?

Post by nostalgia »

Yesterday, the temperatures were good enough to service my first HMV 102 this year. So far I have serviced 3 HMV 102 portables, and also quite some model 101 portables, but this time I witnessed some washers at the bottom of the spring case. I did not see any washers on the past 102's that I serviced, but they may have been there, I may have overlooked them since they are really thin and covered in old grease. But then the questio, why are they put there? They are really thin, and on the machine I serviced yesterday two washers was found, even if it really was space for another two, to fill the 4 small voids at the bottom of the spring case. I am also wondering why these voids are found there, one can also see from the other side of the spring case the marking of these 4 voids. I had to leave the washers out before reinstalling the spring, I could see no way to fasten them down there, if not covering them again with grease? From the late Graham Barber's videos of his work on the HMV spring cases, I can not see that he is at all talking about these washers.

This was a late model 202 by the way, without the panel in the lid. It was a real challenge to get the motor back in, I did not pay enough attention to any numbers on the motor, but it was a heck of a job to get it back in, having to remove the horn completely ( very small screws and nuts are holding the tonearm) to be able to fasten it under the motorboard after servicing the motor. When watching the motor from top after removing the turntable, it looked as it just had been sawn a hole in the motorboard to fit in the gaps for the spinner and the speed indicator. On the earlier 102 models, it looks much cleaner, also shown in the His Master's Gramophone book, where the motor also is accessible without removing even the motorboard, and far less the internal horn. I did a service on a 102 with a panel and lid last autumn, where the motor was easily accessible after removing the platter, a much easier job really. Imho, I would not say that this particular new way to fasten the motor was a progress from the HMV factory.
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spring case2.jpg
Spring case 1.jpg
Last edited by nostalgia on Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phono48
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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by Phono48 »

nostalgia wrote:

This was a late model 202 by the way, without the panel in the lid. It was a real challenge to get the motor back in, I did not pay enough attention to any numbers on the motor, but it was a heck of a job to get it back in, having to remove the horn completely ( very small screws and nuts are holding the tonearm) to be able to fasten it under the motorboard after servicing the motor.
Tone arm held on with nuts and bolts?? Someone has been mucking about with this machine! The three holes on the top of the horn should be threaded to take the three chromed bolts that hold the arm. These later models are no different from the earlier ones as far as maintainence is concerned. Take out the screws holding the motor board and arm clip, Lift out the motor board complete with arm, motor and horn, Then remove the turntable and arm, flip the board over and remove the horn, then you can service the motor by taking off the bottom plate, without even removing the motor from the motor board.

There certainly should be washers between the spring drum and the bottom plate (which will be the top plate if you have the motor upside down), but the ones you have found look far too thin. The fact that they were found in the bottom of the spring case, where they certainly shouldn't be, leads me to believe, as said before, that this machine has been "got at" by someone.

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by nostalgia »

I have uploaded some more photos here, Barry. Removing the motor was not that hard, but to get it back in was impossible without removing the horn completely. Here you can also see the nuts and screws attaching the tonearm to the horn on my machine. The rubber knobs under the motor was impossible to get back in their place without removing the horn. I spent a total of 8 hours work disassembling the complete thing, and putting it back together, cleaning all parts thoroughly, of course including the spring.
My 102 is now all over my bed disassembled for the photos, no wifey here:;)
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HMV 102d.jpg
HMV 102c.jpg
hmv102b.jpg
hmv102.jpg

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by Phono48 »

One thing I can see immediately is that there should be washers under the heads of the motor bolts on the top side of the motorboard, you can see where they were. Are these the ones you found in the spring drum? My guess about the nuts and bolts holding the arm is that the original bolts have got lost, and were replaced with the existing ones, which were too thin for the threaded holes in the horn, so nuts had to be fitted. If you ever have cause to take the horn off again, it would be interesting to see if the holes in the horn have threads in them?

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by nostalgia »

Yes, I could see immediately that washers are missing under the heads of the motorbolts, they will be replaced in a day or two, after purchasing correct washers.
And no, they are not the one found in the spring drum, if you look closely at the washers found in the drum, they are not completely circular, and seems to be made to fill the voids at the bottom of the drum,and is also loosely connected to the side of the drum. I don't know if these voids are a result of the making of the drum itself, when the drum was shaped?
I will remember to look for threaded holes if I ever take the horn off again. If it was not such a difficult task, I could do it again tomorrow, but the nuts are really small and it takes both quite some time, patience, a good light source, good glasses and correct tools to do the job...and the tools are in my rented garage room not too close to my home.

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by Inigo »

Other spring barrels do have these depressions at the bottom plate. I've always believed these were made to retain some grease inside, or to break the vacuum suction of the greasy spring, when developing...
Other barrels are plain at the inside surfaces.
BTW, it's a 1936+14 = 1950 model (B/14), maybe at the end of production.
Anyone has seen a later model? We have B/14-98597.

Mine is a B/9, so five years earlier...
Inigo

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

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Inigo, your explanation makes sense, that these voids/depressions are breaking vacuum or retain grease, but I wonder why they put these thin "washers" down there? Looking at the photo, one can see that one of these "washers" are still in it's position, attached or at least held in its place by a thin "hook" in the metal circular "washer". On the "washer" that is removed from its position, one can see that this small metal hook is breaken off. The two other washers are missing, probably after an earlier spring cleaning. When servicing this particular motor I felt it had been opened and serviced before, it was not as dirty and sticky as HMV portable motors I earlier on have serviced, and also the clip holding the cover of the spring drum was cut shorter than normal. Obviously someone in the past had discovered, how difficult it is to put the clip back in its position without cutting off a few mm's.
I will service another 102 in the next few weeks, and will then pay closely attention if similar "washers" also are found at the bottom that spring drum.
Thank you for also explaining the number system, I now will remember how to calculate the year of production.

The autobrake was removed from this red 102 when I bought it, I guess it is autobrake number 6 for this model? I had no problem removing and reinstalling the autobrake on an earlier 102, with a panel lid, and different motor, similar to the autobrake found on page 209 in the His Masters Gramophone Book. I am at the time of writing this, not sure how to fasten the autobrake on this red 102, since the sawn small hole in the motorboard looks completely different than on the early model (found in the book) with spacey area to fasten the brake. This may however possibly solve itself when I try to attach it. I have a spare autobrake from a cheap black 102 that I bought a couple of months ago, and yes..I also have to check if it is the correct autobrake. If everything works out allright, I will post a photo after installing this autobrake on this 102, in case someone else meets the same challenge in future servicing of this late model of the 102 portable. I guess the autobrake possibly was removed to save the motor, but I would still like to have it reinstalled, to make it complete. Reinstalling it, does not mean the same as using it, of course....

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by Phono48 »

nostalgia wrote:Inigo, your explanation makes sense, that these voids/depressions are breaking vacuum or retain grease, but I wonder why they put these thin "washers" down there?
They didn't! I have removed the springs from literally hundreds of HMV portables over the years, and have never seen washers in the bottom of a drum! Someone, somewhere has put them there, but for what reason we shall never know. I agree that the depressions in the base of the drum may well be to retain an amount of grease, but putting a washer in the depression would defeat that object by bringing the base back to level.

Barry

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by nostalgia »

Barry, the only solution that I also can see then, is that someone, (and that can hardly be anyone else than the person who last time performed a thorough cleaning of the spring drum, and that also is some years ago, since the grease in there was old and sticky), somehow got the idea to fill these 4 depressions with an extremely thin circular washer. The washers are extremely thin, and actually will easily break when bent with fingers, and as we can see on the second photo from top on my uploaded photos, the washer to the left in the drum is still in it¨s position. I decided to leave that one on it¨s place, since it was meticulously fitted to the depression, and as we also can see on the photo, it has a small "hook" that somehow makes the washer attach to the inner lining of the drum. The same hook has fallen off on the second washer. I was close to not discover the thin washers at all, if it was not for that I one extra time used a screwdriver to remove a mm of old grease from the drum, and my screwdriver then suddenly slipped under the loose washer, my screwdriver actually broke the hook on this washer and released it from its position.
And yes, I totally degree of course that putting a thin washer down there would defeat the theory of these depressions functioning as a vacuum, and be a small storage for grease. Maybe the person putting them there had this idea to make the bottom of the drum even, I can't see another reason for it really. The size of the washers are perfectly sized and made to even out the drum base.

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Re: Washers at the bottom of the HMV 102 portable spring cas

Post by Phono48 »

The mere fact that there was a "hook" on these washers proves that they shouldn't be there. There is nowhere to locate that "hook" into the bottom of the drum, and if the washer was reversed so that the "hook" pointed upwards, it would interfere with the coils of the spring. They are probably very thin because they have been there for years, and the continuous action of the coils winding and unwinding has worn them down.

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